The Clone War - Behringer. Good or Bad?

Hi List

So what do you think about this massive introduction of new keys from Behringer? In a short period of time we´ve seen Deepmind 12, Model D and Neutron. And more to come … Pro-One, Vocoder vc-340, Arp and now the latest talk about a Roland m100 clone.

Is it the dawn of a new era or the end of an industry?

I´ve got the Model D. I wouldn´t call it a Moog BUT it sounds really good!

Any thoughts?

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The neutron and the deep mind are clones?

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Behringer are moving into modular- $49-99 a module. I’ll sign off on anything Behringer does to get to that point

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No they are not but the others are…

Another thing, I´ve heard people saying the Deepmind12 is like having a “curtain” over the sound? I´m not sure about that?

I think this is good if musicians are able to get access to a new palette of sound. The vintage synth market has been pretty well ridiculous for years. That said, purchasers have to be OK with buying a commodity synth that will probably not last for decades like many of the original units which were designed to be serviced.

I’m excited for the many people that will be able to get their hands on these sounds for the very 1st time. I own a Pro One and VP-330. You’re going to enjoy the clones. :wink:

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The guy is a genius and the new factory in China provides him with a vertically integrated biz plan that noone else has…

From a biz perspective he’s crushing it it but I’m not sure he’s going to be successful in Eurocrack format for one simple reason… the market is just not big enough.

Coincidentally, I was speaking to one of the largest European dealers today who mentioned he reckons the most succesful module has been the MN Maths… the last serial number he sold was 13,000… its been going for 8yrs+.

To make modules and sell them in that price bracket, even if we assume they sell 20,000, just doesnt seem biz savvy/viable.

On a separate note, I think what he’s doing for consumers is great as it invites new entrants to the game…

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The market isn’t big enough YET. It’s like the elitist celebrity of electronic music creation. Such admiration for modular but such a high admission for entry.

I think they’ll be fairly successful at it.

And, anyway, anybody that has bought a Moog-Clone/Neutron is actually already in the modular scene.

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I hope you’re right.

Thats what I also thought but have recently been told (& seen) otherwise. The market is overly saturated with new manufacturers of sorts and this is healthy. But - speaking to dealers in Europe (on a no name basis), there are a couple of “heavy lifters” phasing out their Eurorack inventory and moving to 5U or just focusing on fewer brands.

I have bought and sold A LOT of gear over the years and the number 1 complaint I keep hearing is that there isnt enough margin to make it viable for them. FWIW, I love synths, knobs and fellow geeks so much, I considered entering the business passively via a fairly significant investment with one of the dealers - I didnt do it after I saw the numbers.

Then you have guys like Juno selling things at cost or below; they can afford to because it’s not their core business and they are being subsidised by their main biz (they make a TON of money selling vinyl).

It’s pretty ridiculous - in some cases, I have been able to buy new gear at a lower price than what it costs some of the other dealers to source from the distributor.

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I think it has peaked, as people slowly realise that as their module count increases their musical output declines they start wondering why on earth they wasted all that money on messy, limited, overpriced modules, it usually happens when they listen to their pre-modular music and compare it to their inane bleeps and bloops that they kidded themselves sounded great, and so different from every other modular users inane bleeps and bloops :joy:

Just kidding of course, but I do think the modular market is at saturation point, $49 modules will probably only make matters worse for small manufacturers.

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Haha inane bleeps.

But yeah. In cases i have seen misic production suffers. Still would like some of that gear, but it has never been close to the top of my priority list.

However a buddy of mine is building an fx only rack and that has made me gas somewhat.

I don’t know.

As far as the reverse correlation with modular size- be it true or not- more is better is still the prominent force of the economy.

As far as the number of manufacturers- I don’t see the issue being the number of suppliers but the right market for the consumers as, right now, if you’re going to dive into modular it’s an all or nothing gambit- Behringer will make it so that it’s much easier to get into

We’ll see- but I see this expanding the modular market as more people will be eligible to play. As of right now I just disregard any cool new modules being announced as it’s an entire world closed off to me currently

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Totally agree with Ryan on all his points. 49€ modules might just be what it takes to get me interested in (hardware) modulars.

I’ve tested the waters with software, mainly AAS Tassman 4 and Reaktor, enouh to know that having cheap enough utility modules (envelopes, LFOs etc) is vital to making modular produce results that are ”worth it” to people like me. Otherwise I’d just rather be using existing synths, like I am now.

As for the ”clone” thing - I don’t really mind tbh. I mean, the original designs are long since discontinued and out of support, I doubt the originators are getting payed by those designs anyway. What clones are good for, is giving ”broke-ass” office workers like me the chance to mess with things like analog 303s and SSL buss compressors, something which I could never afford to do if no clones of any sort ever existed. And if that were the case, perhaps I too would be fooled into thinking that ”its the gear thats important, not the artist” since I could never level the playing field.

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Good.

Oh, man. I’ve been in the modular game for 5 years now, and I’ve actually been insanely productive with it. Made lots of tracks. But! I picked up a second hand rytm a couple of months back, and every time I sit down with it I just make better music, better sounds and quicker, and it’s less expensive. A lot of people are making good music with their modulars, but I think there’s a very real false promise of it delivering something unobtainable from regular synths, and it’s just not there (for the most part, anyway). People want to get into modular because they imagine making sounds “no one has ever heard before”, which is just ludicrous. Every single module out there exist in some form either in another hardware synth or software (and usually in a lot less expensive more feature packed version). I come up with more interesting sounds quicker on any Elektron than with my modular. I still have a large rack, but have been thinking about slimming down to the modules that really stand out and offer something other synths doesn’t offer to the same extent (I really love intellijels rainmaker, for instance). Overall though, I think you’re partially right about what you’re saying. :slight_smile: based purely on my own experience with modular, and of my experience with users and music posted on muffwiggler.

Sorry for going off topic. I’m all for clones unless they infringe upon some copyright. Tools to the people. Someone make a Hartmann neuron clone already. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve created some sounds in modular that I’ve not been able in software outside of approximation’s made in Reaktor. My fave is to use a bbd and resonant filter combo to create a complex osc pair. If you have a bbd with access to the feedback loop, insert a resonant filter in there. You get sick osc sync type sounds but with much more interesting timbral morphing. The bbd length sets the base tone and the filter sets the harmonic sync sound. You can do it in Reaktor, it just doesn’t sounds as rich or complex

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I own a Deepmind 12. Here is my opinion:
At first, I hated the user interface. They cherry picked controls due to limited space and I don’t agree with all there choices. Some of the most important features are a few pages deep and often I would flat out forget how to get to certain parameters. I’m not afraid of menu diving but it was slowing down my speed.
After a month of using it, I’m fine with the UI but still think there is room for improvement.
Now, more importantly, the sound…
Again, at first, I was unhappy. I had a thought I had never had before: “should I send it back?”
I just couldn’t get the sounds in my head to come out of the DP12. I’m use to knobby Moogs, Korgs, Rolands and of course Elektron boxes and they all have their own sound but still lots of crossover.
Well, after sticking with it, I can honestly say I love the DP12 sound. It doesn’t sound quite like any other synth I’ve owned which is a great thing. The lack of a triangle waveform is a big bummer but so far hasn’t really held me back in sound design.
Gripes I’ve heard vs my opinion
Thin Sounding - I disagree, it can be thin when needed but proper OSC stacking and detune settings can give you what you need
Needs effects to sound good - I purposefully worked without using FX for awhile to be sure the raw engine was good enough. To my ears, it’s great without effects but the massive reverbs and delays are quite excellent. I do wish they had more than one compressor available as the one they offer isn’t a standard comp to begin with.
Crappy Build Quality - yes, my keys are little wacky in terms of space between them. But, the board plays absolutely fine and other than that, this thing feels like a tank.

Had I had the money, I would have absolutely bought the OB-6 instead. But, for the price, and yes the sound, it’s worth every penny. It’s highly unique in terms of sound, it’s very playable and despite the screen, the slightly funky keys, and the menu diving, I love it!

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Yeah the whole making new sounds never heard before seems to be a thing, but actually when you break it down, especially with analogue modules there isn’t actually that much that can be done on a modular that can’t be done on a good analog/hybrid synth. Digital modules perhaps less so, but then sometimes they lose a lot of modularity to digital control, so some of them are like a limited digital synth but with a few voltage control options instead of lots of midi cc control.

I got my first modular about 20 years ago, currently have 30u but I could easily lose 21u and still be happy, but I do think yes there are plenty of people doing interesting stuff with their modulars, and nothing wrong with bleeps and bloops, I have made tons of them, it can be a lot of fun, which after all is what is important,

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More mass produced rubbish pumped out of Chinese sweat shops is the last thing planet earth needs.
Hopefully he uses recyclable materials so when discarded they don’t pollute our land, sea and atmosphere

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Funny enough the Neutron(?) or whatever it is called actually sounded quite nice on the demo I heard, and it had a few fairly unique features, but it looked like something only its mother could love :rofl:

All the cashing in clones of other peoples vintage designs though doesn’t sit well with me, not much more than counterfeit really. If they had any sense they would get in touch with Robin Wood and come to an agreement about bringing the VCS3/Synthi range to a wider audience IMHO.

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