Agreed.
I usually get things as close as I can with hardware, sounds, mixing, and arrangement.
Then I throw it into the DAW and finesse the arrangement and some final mixing.
To me that’s the place where DAWs shine.
It’s also the place where the mouse makes since.
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While Push 2 looks interesting it’s really yet another distraction from music making 
Exactly! 
Yes! This is so close to my train of thought that I had to check the username to see if I hadn’t typed this in my sleep 
I work full time in an orchestra, and I’ve had lots of fun with Push - but it never truly felt like an instrument to me, more of a tool. Whereas my new hardware rig definitely does, instantly more responsive and expressive. No latency, no sync issues. It’s a real treat.
…That said, I’ll probably still give the new Push a go, for science.
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so… Ive been considering adding an OT to my setup for some time, due to the reasons being stated here… but keep resisting, thinking its ‘GAS’, so the arguments posted here, have been going around my head for a few months now 
so, I get the Juno/MS 20 immediacy… I have similar thing with my Virus and to a lesser extent my Spectralis.
But I slightly question it for the OT given its ‘complexity’, and the posts here, it seems many spend a reasonable amount of time ‘setting it up’… ok, once done it can ‘just be used’, but one can argue the same of a ‘Live template’ - no?
Recently, Ive been using Live/Push much more, and in a very simple way:
Drum rack, Midi in/out tracks (to Virus), External audio in (from Mix so Virus/Spectralis) and then a couple of my ‘go to’ VSTs (Aalto, Diva) and my send tracks setup with my favourite reverbs etc.
because I know this ‘setup’ is fixed, Ive got it as a template (but it only took about 3 minutes to create anyway), so I start Live, and Im up and running immediately, its simple to use, track switching on the Push, triggering record via foot pedal, perhaps use the sequencer for the Diva, tweaking a few synth parameters … play using my normal midi controllers (Soundplane) - really, never reaching for the mouse, or looking at the screen.
*the new thing for 9.5, is now I can load my saved AU presets for Diva/Aalto, which tended to be the thing I had to do with the mouse at the start of the session
I recognise, this is only possible because Ive restricted my environment… but surely no more than hardware does (e.g. the A4 only has one synth)
so… this is what stops me buying the OT, surely if you ‘tie down’ Live/Push then its no less immediate, its not forcing you to endlessly browse VSTs/samples…
for me at least, I do wonder if its a folly for me to buy (more) hardware to impose constraints/limits, when perhaps I should just be exerting some self control, and using what I have which has all the capabilities.
of course the advantage of this approach, is moving to the polishing stage in the DAW, is more a ‘state of mind’ (and perhaps physical move back to the screen/mouse)
so… Ive ordered a Push 2, to replace my Push 1… in the hope to streamline this more… Ive not traditionally done alot of audio editing (hence Push 1 limits in this area were not a bit issue) but It will be nice to open this up even if its just to ‘tidy up’ the looped audio coming in from my Virus/Spectralis.
so my question is:
Is it not possible to simplify a setup, such that it can be entirely controlled from a controller (e.g. Push) ? and with such a simple setup, tailor it to be act much like a ‘dedicated’ interface?
after all, the octatrack is essentially a (small) computer with a dedicated interface and OS.
note: I think its still nice to have some completely standalone hardware, so you can just switch it on and play without complication… or perhaps i should just get a piano
(note: I deliberately avoid the digital/analog ‘sound’ debate, and of course, there is an assumption you are already ‘invested’ in software/computers… because the cost is no less that hardware imho)
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although I don’t want to make music with a computer… so push is not there for me anyway…
why not think about ‘Push 2 with Elektron gear’?
BINGO !!! [/quote]
… and that’s why you should even park your Elektrons for a while and get grooving on your Monotribe or similar - less is often more
.
after the Atari, using a computer got progressively more infuriating - hitting a sweet spot without having things outside your control mess it up is nigh on impossible now that apple craps out an os every month - it could/should be fun, but in practise it is a pain or expensive keeping up - freeze a setup when it works and keep your fingers crossed it doesn’t die, which three of my Macs have - as said, you turn on and go with these boxes, they sound and flow great and they’ll work just the same in 20+years[/quote]
He-eh ! 
If you have self-control and/or self-imposed constraints, you can avoid the “endless options” part of working with software. It just requires discipline.
Hardware in and of itself is not necessarily more normative than software. Just like software, it depends on what it is.
There are some very simple soft synths with few parameters. And there are kitchen-sink synths with gazillions of options. There are very simple hardware synths – and I don’t think I would characterise any Elektron machine as simple – and there is hardware with a gazillion of options (eg, modular).
Comparing “hardware” with “software” is simply not a useful way to think about it.
If you got a decent mixer - don’t give it away.
My OTB setup is built around a mixer, well, not that kind of a 32-channel-and-more board, but some analog mixing power seems to me essential.[/quote]
I think so too. I’m checking the Midas 16 F - good EQ’q - lot’s of connecting poss-. direct -outs -, inserts per channel, it’s ashame there are " only " 3 send-returns for external FX ( I think - can’t have to much of those ). - groups. - long faders - exellent overvieuw etc …
But I’m gonna take my time to check al that …
I think a good mixer is as essential as good monitors.
A good analog mixer can be a kind of expandeble synth by itself - don’t need internal FX - I want to get those togehter by my onw taste, slowly.
In some Reggea ( mosly Dub ) the mixer became a real -live instrumen and I like that.
If you got a decent mixer - don’t give it away.
My OTB setup is built around a mixer, well, not that kind of a 32-channel-and-more board, but some analog mixing power seems to me essential.[/quote]
I think so too. I’m checking the Midas 16 F - good EQ’q - lot’s of connecting poss-. direct -outs -, inserts per channel, it’s ashame there are " only " 3 send-returns for external FX ( I think - can’t have to much of those ). - groups. - long faders - exellent overvieuw etc …
But I’m gonna take my time to check al that …
I think a good mixer is as essential as good monitors.
A good analog mixer can be a kind of expandeble synth by itself - don’t need internal FX - I want to get those togehter by my onw taste, slowly.
In some Reggea ( mosly Dub ) the mixer became a real -live instrumen and I like that.
[/quote]
Actually, there are 5 send-returns. You’re forgetting the 2 monitor sends! But, it’s still not enough I have the Midas Venice 24F and it’s great.
Just got my Push 2 yesterday and had around 2 hours with it last night - Love it. Simpler, using the Push 2, is just great. Feels better than Push 1 - pads, buttons, lights…
Now, my Octatrack is looking at me with concern…
This is the problem with computers for me >
When I buy a car I’m not supposed to be a garagist - technician I just have to drive it . When I buy a fridge - i can just put my food in there - Im not supposed to be able to repear it… And these machines function how they should. If they wouldn’t there would be furious client reactions. The builders would end up in court. Newspapers would be full of articles how bad these machines are build
Computers seem to escape those conséquences - I’m supposed to be a garagist - to be able to repair - understand the engine in detail - not to talk about having to change the software without end and to find out after a while soft - and hardware have changed so much my machine has become useless. I know from the source ( friends who work in there ) that windows make updates in such a way and on purpous - so you need a sttronger computer to run it. build to eat -up memory ( wich could be done different )
This behaviour would never be accepted for other machines !!
I wanna make music without having to worry and spend most of my time just to keep things running
It’s funny how we accept this when it comes to computers.
I left my computer behind when I realised I spended more time with computer -issues than making music. Give me a limited machine that dous wat it’s supposed to do- creativity will do the rest.
If you got a decent mixer - don’t give it away.
My OTB setup is built around a mixer, well, not that kind of a 32-channel-and-more board, but some analog mixing power seems to me essential.[/quote]
I think so too. I’m checking the Midas 16 F - good EQ’q - lot’s of connecting poss-. direct -outs -, inserts per channel, it’s ashame there are " only " 3 send-returns for external FX ( I think - can’t have to much of those ). - groups. - long faders - exellent overvieuw etc …
But I’m gonna take my time to check al that …
I think a good mixer is as essential as good monitors.
A good analog mixer can be a kind of expandeble synth by itself - don’t need internal FX - I want to get those togehter by my onw taste, slowly.
In some Reggea ( mosly Dub ) the mixer became a real -live instrumen and I like that.
[/quote]
Actually, there are 5 send-returns. You’re forgetting the 2 monitor sends! But, it’s still not enough I have the Midas Venice 24F and it’s great.
Just got my Push 2 yesterday and had around 2 hours with it last night - Love it. Simpler, using the Push 2, is just great. Feels better than Push 1 - pads, buttons, lights…
Now, my Octatrack is looking at me with concern…[/quote]
WOW ! Thanks for this info - enjoy your Push !!
Yeah, this is the obvious question. And one I’m looking into
I’ve invested money to Live 9 Suite, which includes a boatload of useful stuff. Currently I’m using Live as a glorified recorder, which is selling it short.
Doing things like any ‘realistic’ instruments, like multisampled pianos, is pretty much out of the question with the three Elektrons. With the Live 9 Suite, I already have the samples and the means to integrate them with my Elektron workflow – and the Push could serve as a means to avoid actually using the computer while starting the track, which I really want to do.
Also, Live could serve as a great source of Octatrack fodder – again, something I’m not doing right now.
I had a brief stint with Push 1, but that was before the Overbridge beta – so using the two systems in tandem was much more of a hassle, something I wasn’t willing to do. Also the Push 2 screen could actually make a big difference – I remember being frustrated with cryptic abbreviations and the like.
I can flip a lot of your points onto hardware. Each time I power my gear up something isn’t working properly and I need to spent 10/15 minutes hunting down the issue. It could be I haven’t booted up in the right order so getting midi jitter, or the OT is just deciding to be a pain in the arse for the day. In any case, I find the whole “upkeep” far worse OTB than I do ITB. We’re all different though but I do find it amusing that this is acceptable for music hardware but not for computers!
You’ve obviously had some bad computer experiences. I’ve been using a computer with music for, I dunno, 15 years or something. Long gone are the days of driver issues or software not loading. Other than the threat of hard drive failure (which, admittedly, is a big deal) I haven’t had a serious computer issue in years. Probably the most frustration I ever get would be the odd, rare Ableton crash to desktop where I need to restart my computer in order for Live to detect my audio interface. With the latest Windows, a restart takes just about as much time as it would take to turn off all my Elektrons and other bits on and off!!!
Yeah, this is the obvious question. And one I’m looking into
I’ve invested money to Live 9 Suite, which includes a boatload of useful stuff. Currently I’m using Live as a glorified recorder, which is selling it short.
Doing things like any ‘realistic’ instruments, like multisampled pianos, is pretty much out of the question with the three Elektrons. With the Live 9 Suite, I already have the samples and the means to integrate them with my Elektron workflow – and the Push could serve as a means to avoid actually using the computer while starting the track, which I really want to do.
Also, Live could serve as a great source of Octatrack fodder – again, something I’m not doing right now.
I had a brief stint with Push 1, but that was before the Overbridge beta – so using the two systems in tandem was much more of a hassle, something I wasn’t willing to do. Also the Push 2 screen could actually make a big difference – I remember being frustrated with cryptic abbreviations and the like.
[/quote]
You sound like you’re in a similar place to me. I’m still tempted to keep the OT to chuck Live stuff into and to fart around with it on the couch or wherever. My hope to sell up is going very slowly at the moment…
Anyway, I’m quite tempted by UVI’s Falcon (check it out - stunning looking vst). That plus Push 2 will likely keep me busy for a hell of a lot of time.
I don’t consider Push 2 to be the OT killer some suggest but when you look at something like Falcon it does make you wonder. And if Push 2 could be used within Falcon in some creative way it would be a killer combo.
I can flip a lot of your points onto hardware. Each time I power my gear up something isn’t working properly and I need to spent 10/15 minutes hunting down the issue. It could be I haven’t booted up in the right order so getting midi jitter, or the OT is just deciding to be a pain in the arse for the day. In any case, I find the whole “upkeep” far worse OTB than I do ITB. We’re all different though but I do find it amusing that this is acceptable for music hardware but not for computers!
You’ve obviously had some bad computer experiences. I’ve been using a computer with music for, I dunno, 15 years or something. Long gone are the days of driver issues or software not loading. Other than the threat of hard drive failure (which, admittedly, is a big deal) I haven’t had a serious computer issue in years. Probably the most frustration I ever get would be the odd, rare Ableton crash to desktop where I need to restart my computer in order for Live to detect my audio interface. With the latest Windows, a restart takes just about as much time as it would take to turn off all my Elektrons and other bits on and off!!![/quote]
All different for shure. But harware I can undertsand - it’s not something abstract - I can touch and see it - and ones I understand it it douns’t change anymore - I’m and old fart from 66 HAHA… - and yes U guessed right - I had to much computer problems - that’s probabably less of an issue for the younger generation 
If I’m to go down the software road, I’m thinking something like this:
The three Elektrons are the standalone solution – just turn them on, and you have a clearly defined sandbox, with boundaries to keep you focused.
Software is the limitless domain that it is… VST’s and stuff abound If I feel like I want to play around with stuff, here’s where it’s at. I will no longer get hardware sound sources, all the ‘new’ eccentric sounds come from Ableton & co.
So, to start a track, I have the option to run the HW & SW in tandem, or chuck stuff from Ableton into the Octatrack. OR start stuff with Push.
Sounds very familiar! That’s been my set up for the past 2 years or so. I’ve written about my problems elsewhere but I guess with limited time for music, I feel quite guilty having the excellent Elektrons sitting around gathering dust. They are instruments to be learned and mastered and like any instrument, if you dont find time to practice, it gets that little bit harder to get going on them again. I do find myself thinking “WTF am I doing?!” after putting it all up for sale but I’m confident it’s right for me long term.
One thing the Elektrons have taught me is to be more focussed. I totally get when people say there are too many options ITB and it doesnt help. Someone mentioned discipline and that’s very accurate. And discipline is something learned by the Elektron approach with it’s restrictions.
My tip - don’t try to marry up ITB/OTB. That’s when you start to get overwhelmed. If I were you, I’d keep your OTB space completely seperate from whats going on ITB. There is nothing worse than turning on your Elektrons then Live and thinking “shit, I don’t know where to start or what to do” depsite having huge options!!!
Ha. This sounds like my typical evening in front of the music desk.
Yes! This is so close to my train of thought that I had to check the username to see if I hadn’t typed this in my sleep
I work full time in an orchestra, and I’ve had lots of fun with Push - but it never truly felt like an instrument to me, more of a tool. Whereas my new hardware rig definitely does, instantly more responsive and expressive. No latency, no sync issues. It’s a real treat.
…That said, I’ll probably still give the new Push a go, for science.
[/quote]
Ha! Yes! Despite all I’ve said, I’m sure I will cave and get the Push 2, like you say, for science!