Dune Book Series Discussion (spoilers)

[cogsy]

Following a great discussion in the Movie Recommendation thread, I figured it was time to break out the discussion of the Dune novels into its own thread. Continuing where we left off from the excellent post by @hausland

@hausland

I read the whole series in my late 30s. I think @keygen.exe is def onto something. The prefaces of the books (written by Herbert‘s son) laud the „think for yourself, avoid the messiah! - core“ of the books, but the books themselves are nowhere near that clear cut on that theme. Yes Paul‘s Fremen kill billions in their holy war, but there‘s constantly the implication that Paul did what he could to choose the „lesser evil“ as indicated by his prescience. This notion is further deepened in Children of Dune and God Emporer, where Paul‘s son CONSCIOUSLY chooses the Golden Path and calls out his father for having been weak for not having gone all the way (which, the golden path also includes brutality, domination and suffering across 3000 years…and as the story unfolds we are implied over and over, that the God Emporer did the right thing for the evolution of the universe). I agree with keygen, Herbert was really into his Artreidis‘, any criticism that‘s launched in the books seems supersceded by his admiration for and attraction to his Atreidis characters….and Duncan Idaho in particular.

I‘m glad I read the books, especially the first one was a bit of a psychedelic trip, whereas the weak political angle of the other five books was mostly annoying and tainting my enjoyment of an otherwise interesting story

I appreciate your perspective and your thoughtful response, but I came away from God Emperor with the opposite impression. Given the strong anti-messianic sentiment of the previous books (especially the third), I have a hard time seeing the authorial intent being an endorsement of the millennia-long reign of a despotic worm. My main argument there is that the only character that endorses this viewpoint is the Emperor himself. The moral center/perspective character of the book (the Duncan Idaho ghola) is vehemently opposed to it. And as I recall, the Golden Path failed or was largely unnecessary. As the later books flash forward thousands of years, Arrakis returns to desert and even Leto fades into myth. His goal of being so monstrous that he was never forgotten failed. That is as much of a rebuke as I can imagine. In this case, the ends did not justify the means. His vanity and perceived self-importance did not outlive him as he intended. Humanity kept moving right along in cycles of decadence and daring exploration, as it would without him.

I will say that from a meta-narrative perspective, I think that us discussing the morality of Leto II forty years after publication of God Emperor of Dune is probably something that would amuse Herbert to no end.

Other hot takes on the novels are fully welcomed here. Let’s get a good discussion going and get nerdy in here!

[hausland]

Interesting take! My impression reading the book was that the Scattering (which I understood as part of the Golden Path) was an essential event for the survival of humanity, while also creating the conditions to challenge the Bene Gesserit enough to „purify“ their action and intent down the storyline. Towards the last books, the Bene Gesserit morph from this cold hearted, political body towards the guardians and cultivators of all that is essentially true good and beautiful about humanity‘s existence & potential. Part of it was the effect of Leto‘s systematic (and deliberate) oppression of the Bene Gesserit. It‘s also the Bene Gesserit that in later books refer to Leto‘s foresight spitefully, especially because they occasionally imply the recognition of some form of wisdom imbued into that foresight…and through that spite at times shines through a near marvel for Leto and his long-term cunningness. At least that‘s how I read it

Even the Honored Matres are in a form, the explicit, caricatured expression of a perverted inner oppression that was/is hindering the Bene Gesserit from approaching their job as guardians of human evolution with love and holistically — namely their oppression of emotions, love and sexuality. I felt especially in the last book, that Dar looked at the Honroed Matres as a form of mirror that confronted her with the historic shortcomings of the Bene Gesserit (after all, the Honored Matres are, to my understanding, a hybrid evolution of the Bene Gesserit and Leto‘s Fish Speakers).

Goes to show how different people draw different things from the same books they read

On a different note, my wife and I both found that Herbert‘s obsession at times with Duncan Idaho and his manhood/virility had some near homoerotic undercurrents that at times distracted him from the big political picture he was supposedly trying to draw across six books.

Overall, I enjoyed the read but thought Book 1 was easily the best of the series.

But then again, I LOVED the Expanse way more than Dune, so maybe I wasn‘t exactly the audience either

[chrisroland]

read the first two in high school when Lynch’s Dune came out. vaguely recall them being interesting to 14-year old me but not interesting enough to keep slogging through the rest of the series., apparently

[cutlery]

I just wish that everyone that goes on a “Dune is a White Savior Story” rant would read Dune Messiah first.

I read them ages ago and reread Dune and Dune Messiah perhaps 5 years ago - Messiah was widely panned on release and people hated it because I guess they really wanted Paul to be a superbeing and didn’t like that Herbert explored what might happen when a revolution succeeds.

Things change pretty markedly from the midpoint of Children of Dune to God Emperor - and after that it started to feel like the fifth season of a show that only needed four.

I did like how, weird sandworm hybrid stuff aside, Leto became essentially worse than the old Emperor, Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild rolled (ha) into one - complete with trying to breed Idaho Gholas with the nth descendant of his twin sister. (Because… reasons? He wasn’t planning to die.)

Ignoring the ones written by Brian Herbert, I think I’d section the main books much like the latter pair of Hyperion novels by Brandon Sanderson are a big departure from the first two. So: Dune, Dune Messiah and most of Children of Dune, is group 1; God Emperor of Dune is its own batshit weird thing and then Heretics and Chapterhouse might as well be a different series that happens to be in the same universe.

[Chreeb]

Whelp I didn’t realize this was a Dune book /series/ thread

[cogsy]

All are welcome here. But I hope we didn’t spoil it for you. It gets a bit weird

[cogsy]

In my most recent re-read (2/3 years ago), I knocked out the first four books in rapid succession. But I hit a wall when I made it to the fifth. I just put it on hold at the library, so I may try to finish off the core series now that’s I’m recharged and ready.

Yeah, four was focused on Duncan almost to the point of distraction. And it’s always a tough read because it’s pages and pages of philosophical monologue, but I think it’s a pure distillation of the conflicts at the heart of the series.

I enjoyed reading your take on the books! Maybe I’m a bit more mistrustful when it comes to literature. I tend to assume an unreliable narrator or not to take a morally compromised character’s exposition at face value. But I will definitely keep a skeptical eye on the text as I read the final two books, with some of your opinions in mind. These points of view and dissections of the characters’ motivations are part of the fun.

[ignatius]

if i ever get around to reading any of the books i’ll keep this quote in mind. seems relevant today in a lot of ways.

[Chreeb]

Haha all good. It’s not like the first movie doesn’t show us visions of the holy war.

I rewatched it last night. Going to see part 2 tonight.

I remember in the book they talk at length about how Paul’s visions are only one possible future. I’m not sure that was hammered in the first movie. It is more of a “show don’t tell” situation with him seeing Jamis win the fight.

[Chreeb]

I’ve also only read book 1, so… I’m missing a lot

[cutlery]

Messiah is comparatively short, and well worth a read.

I think the wrap up in Messiah must have always been on Herbert’s mind, and it wasn’t in the first book for the usual length reasons.

[voidspacetime]

It’s my favourite book of all time. I also made an album inspired by it

[alechko]

am I the only one who’s going around the house randomly shouting “SILENCE” to everyone after part 2?

[reeloy]

…oh, someone is trying “the voice” on everything…

[Chreeb]

Okay so Denis Dune part II still doesn’t wrap up book 1? So there must be a part 3 that includes the last of book 1 and the rest of Paul’s story from Messiah?

Edit/just clarifying that I watched part 2 last night.

[oomo]

I’d also highly recommend the Dune audio book series narrated by Scott Brick, Simon Vance, and a bunch of others (I listened to them all on Audible, but possible it’s on other platforms too).

It’s a great performance all round from the voice actors, enjoyed it as much as the actual books.

[sigint]

@cutlery

I think I’d section the main books much like the latter pair of Hyperion novels by Brandon Sanderson are a big departure from the first two.

Dan Simmons did the Hyperion series, IIRC… But understandable as Sanderson has written soooooo much.

[sigint]

@hausland

On a different note, my wife and I both found that Herbert‘s obsession at times with Duncan Idaho and his manhood/virility had some near homoerotic undercurrents that at times distracted him from the big political picture he was supposedly trying to draw across six books.

I never caught that vibe… I think he just saw Duncan as the one really heroic persona in the universe. Everyone else has major issues. I’d posit that Duncan’s main issues are directly caused by everyone else’s issues.

[cutlery]

Oh, right, I don’t know why I was thinking Sanderson (I’ve even read more of Simmons’ books than I have of Sanderson’s).

I’m sure that if for some reason Simmons ever reads this thread he will be enraged.

[cogsy]

I enjoy Simmons’s historical fiction (The Terror, The Abominable), but I haven’t tried his Hyperion series. What I enjoy most is how meticulously researched the technical historical details are (his descriptions of the ship provisioning or climbing gear/techniques). No clue how that would translate to sci-fi