Whats wrong with me? The step from Ableton only to AR mk1 and A4 mk1 is not working as i was dreaming bevore i bought them

Hi guys
First I have to sorry about my english maybe I cant find the right words to explain 100 % whats in my mind.
I am doing technomusic since 2010 with Ableton Live, later Push 2 and plugins only.
I never had the budget for expensive hardware synthesizer like the elektron stuff.
The thing is when you are making music with pc only everyone who thinks he knows techno said to me : without the right hardware you arent able to do the RIGHT technomusic. Techno can only be made with a studio full of expensive gear.
And the software synth sounds weak and thin and so on…bla bla.
So since i am trying to do my music with pc, deep in my mind there was a voice saying you need this thing or that thing to do the real phat techno aso.

So I decided to invest in real expensive and very high pushed hardware Instruments from elektron. Bevore a year I bought the Analog Rytm for tight Analog Drums and the Analog Four for analog warm and rich synth sounds. So that I never had to make my Drums with Plugins or Maxforlive Drums or what else. Because analog had to be good.

So first I had to learn to understand the new devices to be able to control them like my Ableton Sets bevor. To know how to get them sound as i want. And yes i had to spend a lot of my time to understand how to get sound them right.
Today it is a daily fight against on the one side me who is thinking i am doing wrong and the devices are right, i had to be to nooby to programm the sounds i want. Or is it the boxes? Are they doing wrong?
AR: I am not able to get the hihats and the cymbals and the clap sounding so good as i want to. There is something with the tuning or the phase of the hihats and cymbals that i am not able to programm what i love to. Bevor the rytm i often used from D16 Group the 808 and 909 plugins. And i never got trouble with hihats or claps.

The A4 isnt such a big problem to me. I know how to get it sound much deeper in bassrange. But sometimes I am wondering about the osc waveforms. Why are they sounding so…hm…different to for example my microbrute.
Often i am turning the knops for hours to get interesting sounds to see then i have done four patches which are all sounding little similar and boring. I am not a good patch programmer or what is it?
It is really hard to get it sound phat.
To get it sound phat with reaktor 6 blocks with a simple bass patch is much easyer to me.
Why is it so hard for me to get that boxes working?

Even the second chapter Overbridge and recording a live performance in Ableton is as pro it has to be , to be not working 100 % . Sometimes the MidiDriver (Win 10 ) is not working in the middle of a Jam Session. Or i get the bit reduction glitchy sounding elektron OB boxes issue. Than i have to power off and on again . Or i forgot to save a kit and press reload kit and arrrghhhh…

Now when i am scrolling through my old ableton only projects i think wow how good is that groove sounding even its only software.
Not as good as my rytm.

Someone of you might had the same creative crisis after changing his running system?

Do you have a tip for me how to get further and to get happy with my stuff again?

To sell my boxes isnt a good solution too, because of the mk 2 series the prices are fallen dramaticly that i will loose to much money.

Yes luxury problems i got. But i need a little help. I am loving my Elektrons and the same time they stealing my nerves and making me sad.

Thank you

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I sort of know what you mean. The Elektron boxes are more like programming, and can be tedious at times. I often find myself in the ‘just can’t be bothered with them’ state. They really take a lot of time to invest to get somewhere with them, until such time it it should be more second nature. I think for some people they are a dream, for others a frustration. I love my gear but get frustrated more with myself not putting in the time they really need.
The only advice I can offer as I feel it for myself is to carve out more time to become more familiar with them, and don’t be too hard on yourself with frustration.

I feel sorry for you, that you believed that.
If you had more fun and better results with ableton and reaktor, use that setup again. Sell your elektrons if they make you sad.
Software is totally fine, can sound as good as any elektron or other hardware, and the elektron workflow is not for everyone.
The RIGHT techno is made by you, not your machines.

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No thats not what I am thinking thats whats others made me think. The good old Analog vs. Software Theme.

And a little bit i think if i sell them it is like giving up. Its always a chalance against myself to be successfull

yeah, just don’t listen to them

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I would say … “groove” has nothing to do with the instrument, it’s timing only … and well … using the right sounds at the right moment.

If you are used to fine-tune your timing and sounds in Ableton, you can do exactly the same with the Elektron sequencers.

Additionally, if you think about all the parameters, parameter-locks, triggers, and the possibilities of the probability functions, you would have to create and manage tons of control and automation lines in Ableton. The Elektron boxes just need the press of one trig and the turn of an encoder.

I think, it’s only less visual, because there is no big screen and the typical drum-track or drum-rack of Ableton. In Ableton you can see on-screen, what you are doing, on an Elektron box you might have to imagine, what you can do on the tracks and foremost … listen to the sound and groove.

If your groove is too static, every step allows for micro-timing … this is shifting the position in time between two steps. Each step can be modulated seperately … just change velocity or any other paramter, as you did in Ableton and you should come up with the same result.

I wouldn’t recommend to start using the Elektrons as hardware-plug-ins to get their sound only. This would be missing the most important features of those boxes. I would say, start to use them stand-alone and you will see … or better hear … and understand, how to use them :wink:

BTW … software is absolutely a great ressource. It’s simply not true that great electronic music can be produced with hardware only. This is nonsense.

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like martin stimming said in a youtube video of elektronic beats : Music production is a fight that I am winning!
And you know he is really succesfull i think.

People often lead on that hardware is easier than software but really whatever you learn on is easiest. You’ve have a price barrier blocking you from finding out until now and you’ve probably seen all these studio photos with 100 synths and all the extras with guys raving on about hardware being superior to software. These are tools and incredibly useful ones but really you will be fastest with whatever you work most with. I recommend incorporating your computer into your hardware rig, don’t try to use everything to its maximum potential, use it as you need it.

For example, if you’re building a box and you need to screw something together, you don’t need to overthink using a screwdriver, you just screw it together. And you don’t need a whole workshop to do it in, but it might be nice to have one. That workshop is a studio of hardware in music terms.

Relax, don’t sell your gear just yet. Spend some time with it and don’t worry about your output, eventually you’ll use all the tools when the time comes

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ah thanks this is a positiv way of looking in the future. Really good words. Thanks!

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I think controling those hardware boxes live is much more like playing an instrument.
Software cant deliver such direct interface to control, yet.

Maybe when PC problems are out of the World but…

Yeah that’s the allure for most people. Using hardware at first can seem somewhat tedious but once you learn your way around a box properly little gets in the way. when you’re in the flow of things everything is a couple of button presses away. It’s also a matter of finding gear you click with. Elektron gear is a bit more demanding in the beginning than others but once you get it you kind of get their whole line of boxes. Just give it some time, then if it’s not for you don’t be afraid to move on to something else

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If you are not on a project and on a schedule, switch off the PC for some hours and try stand-alone.

Yes it’s like an instrument, but it’s also a step-sequencing operaton, which is quite an interesting experience on the hardware, but not too different to Ableton. The logic of a beat is the same.

For a more PC based person, the GUI of Overbridge might be a faster access to the sound design, so use it. But to get the best out of those boxes, try jamming and building up your grooves from scratch. If you have been successful with Ableton, it should be easier than you might think … :wink:

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Not sure why people continue to say hardware sounds better than software, certainly not my experience.

I also consider software sequencers to be ultimately more convenient than hardware sequencers, particularly when making complete songs.

If you were happy working ITB there are no valid reasons for you to change workflow.

yes you are right but I bought them to be able to play a live set really live with real instruments.

With Ableton I had to resample Synth lines and work with samples and clips to keep it running.
And thats not I want to do in a live set. Press play and stop of clips.

My advice:

-Don’t use Overbridge

-The A4 has a weak sound for an analog synth, but of course others will disagree. You probably need to process it with a plug-in or two to fatten the sound…

-If you can’t get the hats and claps you want from the Rytm, try tweaking the sample layer of those sounds or changing it to another sample, and use overdrive.

-Get an audio interface with more than two inputs (avoid Behringer) and use the individual outs from the AR to process the hats or claps or whatever with your plug-in effects in Live.

Maybe I have to make a Step backwards. I will do a Track ITB only with my old Ableton Setup. And I will try to do it in the elektron Way. And then I might learn whats are the pros of the Rytm and the A4 and the cons about Ableton only.

I think a hybrid way might be working for me.

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Lots of artists do great music with software only. It is not about the tools that you use but how you use it. Some will say that you can’t be a true techno artist if you don’t use hardware…well, not so long ago people would say that techno is not music because it is programmed and not played.

I was in the same boat as you. You should use the tools that keep you both creative and productive.
Keep the hardware for few touches here and there, learn how to use them when you are fed up with your laptop…be patient and use whatever tool you feel depending the mood.

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I think the most thrilling experience with the elektron gear is that you can use it as an instrument. When I’m creating film music or other more orchestrated productions, I always would use the PC. I love using it as if I were in a space ship cockpit and just intuitively press the buttons and switches… completely other interpretation of even the same music style :slight_smile:

Break it up into manageable chunks. Did you ever lose weight in one day, get a degree in a week or turn 25 in a month?

It takes time to reach a certain goal, a dream without the hard work is just a dream.

I’d say grab a pen and paper and study one of the two instruments first. understand the file structure and make use of the saving and organizing functions.

Break down what it is that the machine can do and prioritize the functions. As an example, on the rytm, you first select a sample and an engine you want to work with, you add trigs and build a basic pattern. Then systematically explore this pattern with con trigs, P-locks, Lfo’s and whatnot. When you’re happy with the pattern and feel you’ve maximized the rytms functions you can continue to the next track. Choose a sample and engine and start the whole process again. Learn to save your progress and learn to deal with fuckups.

We live in a time in which instant gratification is more prominent than ever, good thing however, take time.

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IMO if you’re making any kind of dance music a hardware drum machine is essential. Because once you learn how to use it, it is quick to come up with ideas, and, more importantly it is simply more fun than Ableton & Push’s step sequencer and that awkward drum rack system.
Dance music was made with drum machines to begin with, it’s a genre very much defined by the tools that made it possible in the first place.