Upgrading Ableton Push 3 to Standalone

[timerickson]

This thread is specific to discussion on upgrading the Push 3 hardware. If you want to discuss anything more broadly about the Push 3 feature set, operation or use, see the main thread: New PUSH 3 MPE, Standalone option...out now!

Ableton’s Push 3 comes in two versions, Standard and Standalone

The official kit to upgrade the Push 3 consists of 3 parts:

1. Intel NUC Compute Element, CM11EBi3 (integrated 8GB RAM)
2. a 256GB 2280 M.2 NVMe SSD
3. A custom designed battery

It may be possible to swap in faster 11th gen elements, CM11EBi5 or CM11EBi7
Or even upgrade to faster Intel 12th gen models ELM12HBi3, ELM12HBi5, ELM12HBi7

Intels 12th gen shrunk from 14nm to 10nm, meaning greater performance at less battery draw and less heat. Intel has not yet released 13th gen versions of the U Series Compute Elements. If they do, that is on a 7nm production, again further efficiency improvements.

[cyancoffee]

Can’t wait to see what custom builds people make with this! Even if it’s just a slightly better processor

[alechko]

I’m really curious if future ARM processors would be possibility, linux has full ARM support so I don’t understand why it has to be limited to Intel, and they already have ARM support on macs so I really wonder if that’s something that will be possible in the future, better performance per watt, longer heat sink life, longer battery life, etc., etc.

[natehorn]

It’ll be interesting to hear from Ableton about upgrade paths that go beyond the existing hardware.

Although technically it would be trivial to install bigger RAM or a faster CPU, depending on the architecture the Push might not be able to utilise it. Even comprehensive operating systems often have limits (I remember Windows XP not being able to address anything more than 4GB of RAM, for example).

[shigginpit]

I’m guessing it’s future proofed towards at least 1 generative level of capabilities upgrade. They like money.

[reeloy]

…i’m pretty confident, that “limitation” to intel chipsets is only a matter of month…

but also, let’s be real…this upgrade option to total standalone functionality is a great move by ableton…BUT…push3 as a controler and interface “only” is already as good as it possibly can get…
…hook it to ur computer, close ur laptop, let it run in the background, put it elsewhere and just push what what u wanna push anyways…and let it all glide beyond all dimensions…

[alechko]

I don’t know why people think that 8gb or ram is not enough, a custom linux os can boot in >100mb with drivers, 8gb is truly lots and lots of ram, consider that people buy laptops with window managers and make music on full scale live with that, it should be more then enough for a dedicated box for many years.

[natehorn]

Yea I definitely expect upgrades to be possible - it gives them more scope for development too, like if they were to release a new stock instrument that needed a bit more juice, “buy our Push3+FX pack now so you can use our spectral mega reverb on more than 1 track”

[Monobear]

Its not about the OS, its about playing big sample librarys for example.

[timerickson]

Considering the U-Series NUC Compute Elements uses an Intel designed (proprietary?) connection, it’s unlikely we’ll see AMD or ARM based chips in here, maybe never.

Your options are only the models I listed in my OP until 13th gen or future Compute Elements are released. RAM is also soldered to these boards and not easily upgradable.

[brian3kb]

There also aren’t any ARM CPU’s that I know of that are readily available to use that would outperform the Intel processors currently available in the NUC lineup.

I imagine they are holding off for the 14th gen intel chips that will be manufactured at 4nm, that will bring the heat down, and battery life and performance up from what they are initially shipping with.

I’m also hopeful that any compute card will be recognized, and that Ableton haven’t locked it down to specific models.

[Jukka]

@brian3kb

I’m also hopeful that any compute card will be recognized, and that Ableton haven’t locked it down to specific models.

That must have been interesting for the designers and test team, to make sure that the Push platform is prepared for some unknown upgrade eight years or so from now. We can imagine what that might be like applying a Moore’s law kind of prediction. I imagine they tested some options already and have some specs set for their first upgrade.

Ableton no doubt spent a lot of time consulting with Intel to get the interface perfect.

Even battery technology will work to everyones advantage. If i was buying right now i probable would choose to live with the controller for the time being, and be ready to get an upgrade later.

And Intel might even add cores along the way, years out.

[brian3kb]

It seems that’s what a lot of people are doing, as the Standalone is out of stock with no estimate for availability on the Ableton shop (or perhaps they misjudged demand for standalone vs controller?).

[Jukka]

How would you build and stock for this ?

I’d two step it as that would allow the greatest flexibility, and faster restock. So you stock unpacked controllers, with some upgrades, and you do a final assembly and packaging before ship. You could also stock both units packaged as well, but still have some other units for flexibilty in stocking.

There will no doubt be people ordering the conversion kits very soon, so you need to stock those as well anyway.

[timerickson]

@Jukka

to make sure that the Push platform is prepared for some unknown upgrade eight years or so from now. We can imagine what that might be like applying a Moore’s law kind of prediction. I imagine they tested some options already and have some specs set for their first upgrade.

Ableton no doubt spent a lot of time consulting with Intel to get the interface perfect.

As long as Intel intends to keep supporting the U-Series Compute Elements, we should have upgrades every new (or every other) Intel generation. They skipped 9th gen and it’s possible they’ll skip 13th. We’ll have to wait and see.

Chips will keep shrinking thanks to smaller node production, meaning no technical limitations in the design of the U Series card. Intel have NUC Board Elements, which serve as a demonstration of how to route NVMe, LAN, USB, HDMI, etc. which Ableton referenced to build the Push 3 PCB

[yoyz2k]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

[timerickson]

Hi, thanks for your reply, but it’s better served in the main thread here: New PUSH 3 MPE, Standalone option...out now!

[yoyz2k]

Done

[Jukka]

If i understand Nick Batt correctly, in SonicTalk 757, there is a special bios, on the NUC boards for the Push 3 expansion. That totally makes sense, plus helps Ableton make upgrades more predictable. Will be interesting if Ableton distributes the bios. ( You’d think not, though they may have to for rev changes, though encryption would be easy enough on that. I’d expect bios rev changes will be rare, and may never be needed. )

[nori]

I dont see why Ableton would spend resources on building a custom bios as all the hardware is a standard nuc compute element.

If anyone wanted to make a diy upgrade kit, they would need the bootloader and “Live os” which is on the included nvme drive.

Its more likely they do a simple hardware check on boot via the bootloader to see if the battery is attached (as this is a custom built part). That is like one line of code.