Understanding Swing Trigs

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Hello,

I know how to get to and apply Swing Trigs. But I am very confused by using them well. I have seen the quote from Roger Lynn about putting it on the even half of 16th notes, (2, 4, 6, 8 etc…)

So that will swing 16ths. But what about making swung 8ths? As I perceive it 50% is nothing but 66% is pushes the trig later. So wouldn’t it make sense to swing the odd steps 3, 7, 11, & 13? This way you get triplet 8ths right?

Referencing the typical 16th break up of “1 e + a”:
If I make “e” or 2 swung, then it will only be on the “e” at 50% and almost to the “+” at anything above that. But a swung 8th is supposed to be after “+” and before “a” right? So shouldn’t it be on “+” or 3 and set to 66% sing to get a proper “1, x, ta” from the “1, te, ta” method of counting triplets? Or am i just having a big blockage and not seeing the obvious?

I have always seen the usual swings on the odds as typical but found it had no effect unless I program a beat with 16th notes which is often too busy for my taste. Unless I am missing how it should work.?.>.>

Thanks in advance for helping me evolve :slight_smile:

  • Toof
#2

I think the easiest workaround is to set the scale setting to 1/2

#3

I’m also confused. Even after reading all those posts and whatnot I still don’t effing understand why I can’t simply swing an 8th note like musicians have done for a century. I end up using micro timing for eighth note triplets but that’s annoying.

As mentioned, setting the scaling to 1/2 and then telling it to swing should work. But if you want to throw in the first triplet you’re SOL (retrig maybe?)

1 Like
#4

Sorry can you explain more?

I just did a test. I made sequence of hats on 1, +. I put the swing trigs on 3, 7, 9, & 13. So with swing added it should push the “+” toward the “ta”

I also made a pattern with 12 steps set to 3/4 speed in the scale page. With trigs on 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12. I get triplet 8ths, leaving out the middle “te”

In the first example if I set the Swing to 80, I can switch between the two and they sound identical. this make sense to me if the swing value pushes the note later in time. But everyone seems very happy with swings on the 16ths as Roger Lynn set it up. Which seems to suggest the note would come sooner with more swing. ie to get swung 8ths you would swing the “a” and pull it in earlier so it hits on the “ta” of the triplet.

So you would program a 1, x, x, a and slide the last not back? I have tried this and the swing seems to push it later so it doesn’t work. So I did the thing you see above.

But I guess I really want to understand, do people only use swing on beaths with 16th notes? Do people just not swing 8ths? Or am I just missing it all and need a good explaining…

Grateful for all help, thanks!

1 Like
#5

y’all can put the swing trigs wherever you like ! no ? any position, any amount, or is that just the analogs, pretty sure it’s that way on OT too

#6

02
Screenshot 2019-09-25 at 18.01.02.png891×104 24.4 KB

#7

my Analog Keys has swing trigs, my Digitakt doesn’t

1 Like
#8

I might be not be understanding you correctly, but you just want classic 1/8 swing notes, which is basically the first and third notes of a triplet, correct?

If that’s the case then set up the 16th note swing trigs like normally. Lets make it simple and put trigs on every trigger. With no swing you get the classic “1+e+and+a”. Increase the swing amount to 66% to get that (almost) 16th trips feel. Now go into the scale settings and move the modifier from 1x to 1/2x which will then turn your 16ths into eights and you’ll get that 1-x-3 triplet feel that’s basically straight swing.

If you already knew that and are looking to do something more complex then my bad and it’s probably out of my wheelhouse

2 Likes
#9

Yes Gir you hit at exactly the issue that confuses me with your quote.

I look forward to more enlightenment from you all.

It seems to me the 8th was swung first, why does it seem so not important to these machine makers…??? is it just a matte of understanding a key concept??

I don’t even see how this is true, from the Lyne quote " In my products I describe the swing amount in terms of the ratio of time duration between the first and second 16th notes within each 8th note. For example, 50% is no swing, meaning that both 16th notes within each 8th note are given equal timing. And 66% means perfect triplet swing, meaning that the first 16th note of each pair gets 2/3 of the time, and the second 16th note gets 1/3, so the second 16th note falls on a perfect 8th note triplet."

How can that be true?

If a 16th vs a triplet count looks like this:
16= 1 e + a
3 = 1 te ta

Wouldn’t you want to Push the + of the 16th to hit the Ta of the triplet?

1 Like
#10

spssky

Ok I see what you’re saying…

I think I am also just getting my head around practical use of swing and this is confusing me technically and aesthetically at the same time.

Im trying to understand more trad rhythms by programming and studying them and I have a lot to learn . This thing is making me wonder if I am programming right or undermining my own understanding of what I am studying.

#11

I feel you. The octatrack probably isn’t the best for trying to really understand that stuff – traditional music is just not it’s forte. As a side note … Swing and stuff like that clicked for me when I started programming drums on the tempest where you can move between different values on a grid. I keep the swing at 50% (maybe adjusting it a hair if I’m looking for a particular groove) and just arrange on the 16th and 16th triplet grids. On the 16th triplets in particular, you can get the “swung” notes of 1/8th triplets but ALSO the upbeat of a 1x3x 16th note pattern which I find works for me

1 Like
#12

That’s the way I used it with MD.

I don’t think I’d use swing with other settings (unless someone propose nice settings, with musical exemples), except as a delay for all 16 trigs instead of microtiming, for SRC3 recording and direct play with Flex.
That way you don’t have to plock microtiming.

I recently experienced 12 steps patterns with OT, giving that so particular groove. I don’t think it works with swing…
Is it ternary, shuffle, triplets ?



2 Likes
#13

These are in fact swing and eighth note triplet examples. Shuffle is interchangeable too. Think of the classic Beach Boys song (California girls for instance) they would call these rhythms “shuffle”

Setting the Octatrack first page to 12 steps will give you a single bar of 3/4 if you divide it that way (I. E. each step is a 16th note) or two bars of 6/8 (I. E each step is an eighth note–place the snare on trigs 4 and 9 for the sort of “doo wop” feel) or one bar of 6/4 with straight 8ths dividing it… But you’ll find more often than not the 8th notes dividing a 6/4 are actually swung aka “compound triple” meter. Good luck getting that out of a groovebox in a way that makes sense!

You can see why I often go on about having per page scaling… Being able to easily visualize different time signatures would be a huge bonus for these machines. Being able to easily visualize triplets would be a bonus too instead of these workarounds…

1 Like
#14

Thanks to every one for participating in this conversation. I followed another users suggestion from another thread and just did some recording and looked at the result.

In doing so I found that the RL setting of 63 DOES produce a good swing but only on the 16ths AND if you look at the attached image… its a half bar off. I am sure there is a smart work around but… here’s more.

IF I did set the Swing trigs to be on the “+” then a setting of 63 is not enough.

I ended up finding that a value to 80 works. The resulting pattern is a proper triplet, skip the middle beat, swing. it matches an 1/8 triplet programmed directly into my DAW as midi. And it could of course be dialed back.

SO I don’t really know how Roger Lynn’s approach works, if you wanted trad swing 1/8ths excepting as many have said to play that pattern at 1/2 time and other work arounds.

This method seems pretty straight forward and avoids the gymnastics. Now I just wish I could default swing trigs to be on those steps as default.

Swing%20Question
Swing Question.png1522×873 98.7 KB

Just a note about the image. Where the midi notes are seen, the res here doesn’t show the subdivisions. The first bar is just solid 8ths, second is triplet 8ths, third is triplet 8ths with each midle of the trplet removed. This matches quite exactly the “+” swung to 80 on the OT.

2 Likes
#15

This is great info. I think what Linn was getting at was that 63 is perfect 16th note swing, not “perfect swing”

He ruined everything with his flippant use of musical language!

2 Likes
#16

IIRC you can even use only one swing trig if you like. Just press [Func] + [Bank] (with grid recording mode active) and go to swing trigs with down arrow.
Use trig keys to delete or enter swing trigs.

#17

ok, so for us dumb button pushers out there, what you wanted to do is to set swing trigs to every other 8th note and set swing value to 80 in order to get that jazzy swing feel from the OT?

hmm, think I’ll try that myself with the A4. I have a hard time visualizing these timing things from written text, I need to hear it for things to make sense :nyan:

3 Likes
#18

I usually use microtiming or subtle swing values across all tracks (52-53%) which sounds really nice on the OT, but I guess it should work just like you said, lay down your eigth note pattern (1/2 tempo) and put swing trigs on every other hit.

#19

Yes my goal was just to study beats to help my own beat making and Rhythm vocabulary overall. I sometimes need to hear what I see written to get it.

So I found this will let me do the things I need to. I also posted to a FB group I am in and some one gave me this link: Shuffle vs Swing

Really helpful and I have found that values other than 80 give nice more subtle variations. Which is pretty much what everyone was saying.

My biggest confusion was the 16th based swings and how to NOT have to run something half time or other workarounds. And finally what i intuitively thought was right was, I just needed to get more empirical to understand the values.

Now that I do, all the ideas peoples suggested are totally open options but I do know the core level functioning. This gives me the most freedom AND makes my OT an excellent too for music study.

Rockon

1 Like
#20

So you can make shuffle with swing 80 values?
Any simple example with step numbers and their swing values?