The end of AI music?

The Lounge General Discussion
102

There is no ethical use of something which obtained its material in an unethical manner. Nothing a single AI creates does so without first using source material that it did not, in most cases, have permission to absorb. AI is not an instrument. And regardless, there is an endless sonic palette found in real life to sample and mangle that did not rise out of the ashes of questionable fires.

I do understand what you’re trying to say. But I think you’ve been misled to assume that the raw material AI works with is, in fact, not copyrighted, when it most certainly almost always was. Just because AI itself distorted its original material does not mean that the sample you take from that material did not originate via unethical means.

I’m not sure I understand the need to make sense of AI in art at all. What is the utility of saying “don’t use it like that, use it like this”, when we’re all in agreement that the technology itself infringes on the rights of artists merely by existing?

6 Likes
103

Just the beginning, I’m afraid.

Unfortunately, the capabilities of AI and how it fuels people’s fascination keeps it going. Also, it too being intimately associated with enterprise to cut the costs of needing additional staff (why it’s even hyped up in the first place by a huge array of companies), and authoritarian governments who want to use it to automate “defense” systems.

At this point now, trying to avoid AI will be like trying to avoid Google or Amazon - you’d have to avoid a huge bulk of tech made possible from like the Industrial Revolution or a bit after to avoid any association with it. Question is how many people genuinely want to go to that depths - there are some, but it’s not likely that many.

ramble

Only way to make AI not exist is to disrupt the systems that run it. They’d fight to our death (or get us all imprisoned) rather than ditch the tech though, and even then, they’ve won some degree of support for it (various businesses, the occasional bigot that wants to use it to easily craft misinformation and otherwise pays more powerful bigoted figures money, votes and attention).

104

I would argue that apathy, indifference, and ignorance of AI technology “keeps it going”. Especially in America, where not only there is zero effective safeguard or regulatory body for AI, but also where most users and spectators of AI treat this pervasive technology with the same flippant, resigned, fatalist attitude most do with all public issues that could otherwise be resolved with collectivism. If “you’re afraid” and “it’s unfortunate”, why accept this technology?

I would also argue that you may be misrepresenting the current state of AI’s accomplishments and potential. While there are still millions of daily users of both generative and LLM models, the majority of people are using AI as a google replacement tool. The majority of people are also using AI with little to no understanding of how an LLM actually works. Which, also, is exactly why all the core companies are competing with Google to create a browsing experience. They know that most users are not using LLM agents outside of enterprise. And, even in enterprise, agents are rapidly despised or being babysat to filter constant inaccuracies.

Fortunately, to bring this back to Generative AI, which is what this thread is ultimately addressing, I think, fortunately, most people are already sick of it. The shiny rock days are already far behind us and AI as an art form was and is already appropriately ridiculed by artists and fans. Even Björk’s (who I love) latest music video in which she collaborated with a Generative AI artist, were widely and deservedly mocked for being completely out of touch with the ecological disaster that precedes the tech.

The majority of independent (not enterprise) power users have pulled away from assistive use in professional environments (coding, writing, etc.). The vast majority of users find such little purpose or accuracy in LLMs, for instance, that most users do not pay for pro tiers, despite all AI companies as of late last year drastically throttling free use to encourage paid tiers, which will never happen.

… trying to avoid AI will be like trying to avoid Google or Amazon
… there are some, but it’s not likely that many.

Many do (outside of AWS), and many more would should society quit encouraging a defeatist and fatalist attitude towards the things inflicted upon us.

I do understand what you’re saying, however. Where I agree with you is in the danger AI poses to society outside of art, especially. However, this defeatism is exactly what trains the models used to empower AI as a tool for much darker utility.

6 Likes
105

Gotta respectfully disagree with your 3rd & 4th paragaphs, dude. Do agree with the first & final paragraphs though.

Try looking at the whole AI generated art thing from the perspective of someone outside of an artistic/creative bubble. AI’s here to stay and that sucks. Clearly a lot of people are into it for a variety of reasons.

I saw this on TV the other day, it depressed the hell out of me. The chatbot companies described in it already have tens of millions of users (one cited, Replica, has 35 million already). Take for instance the points at made at:

  • 3:07 - where the evolutionary biologist describes how we’re basically engrained to relate to entities that that communicate like humans as though they’re human.
  • 4:25 - the (unfortunately uncredited) survey statistic of 1/3 of American teenagers confiding in AI chatbots.

That’s scary as hell.

Then look at the context of the clips used in this Fantano rant. Note how the woman behind the AI singer is being interviewed by mainstream (CBS at 0:52) & tabloid media (some chat show at 2:28)? That gets a lot of eyes & ears, and further legitimises slop, even if the interviewer questions the slopper the audience can still miss the point, like ‘so what if the slopper can’t sing? she can still make bangers with the AI!’

Wasn’t aware of Bjork getting clowned for her AI use. Had a quick search for that, but it looks to be largely confined to the pre-AI internet hive mind (Reddit). The average person on the street is unlikely to give a shit about some avant-guarde singer who hasn’t had a radio hit in like 30 years.

1 Like
106

I find the use of copyrighted material for “AI” training as disturbing as you do. Yet, what you are describing is the ideal world in which the artist gets to choose or to be heard. Unfortunately, the models have long been deployed and there is probably no going back.

Regarding your concerns about my knowledge or background in AI, I’m a seasoned professional in the field itself. This said, I don’t actually use either AI or sampled clips in my compositions at all. I’m pretty much old school when it comes to composing.

1 Like
107

It’s funny to me how easy it is to dupe people into believing hype. Without the necessary information-vaccine, most people are easy targets into believing “ai is the future and it is inevitable”. Lmao. The companies behind the lying chatbots (LLMs) really want everyone to believe is here to stay. But it won’t because the lying chatbots are not very useful in the real world.

Many businesses are paying for it now due to believing the hype, but at some point they’ll realise they’re wasting money.

Also, the providers of lying chatbots can’t continue burning money forever. Their business model, if you can call it that, is deeply broken. The cost of inference is way too high vs what they charge, and the majority of its users are already not paying and will never pay, certainly not the actual real price they’d have to pay to cover the costs. In other words, they will have to increase the price to use their services eventually, and the price will have to be so high that nobody will be willing to pay the price because it will be cheaper to hire someone to do that, instead of paying to be able to use the lying chatbots whose output has to be checked anyway and can never be fully trusted.

2 Likes
108

I really wish that AI conversations, love or hate would disappear from the forum! Can’t post AI slop, cool! However, it’s okay to complain nonstop about AI slop and abuse anyone that likes it?

It’s fucking gross and should stop!

2 Likes
109

I mean you can mute this thread if you don’t like it or don’t wanna participate.
I think it’s ok for people to express how they feel about it and share stuff.

I think mods flag any kind of abuse or bad comments

4 Likes
110

I wish it was that easy! It’s exhausting!

I’d have to mute almost every thread on this site!

Can’t folks go to Reddit or whatever shit they like and chronically complain there?

They can’t get them all and why should they even have to?

111

I mean also AI is kinda trending topic almost everywhere online, it’s kinda hard to escape it.
So i feel you

4 Likes
112

It would be tolerable if people could have a rational conversations regarding it. However, it’s met with so much negativity and hate that it’s impossible.

113

I too wish for it to disappear and never have to hear about it again. And the day will come, hopefully soon. Everyone is welcome in the fight to make its disappearance quicker. Then we can forget all about it like we did with NFTs.

4 Likes
114

{C42FCBEF-647D-4FE2-8AB2-DE80A7B46BEC}
{C42FCBEF-647D-4FE2-8AB2-DE80A7B46BEC}624×856 34.2 KB

Not sure what counts as “radio hit”, but …

5 Likes
115

I don’t think we’re that lucky! Better buckle up because theres turbulence up ahead!

116

It requires effort to achieve, man. Good things don’t happen quickly on their own!

If you look at the economics of it, it’s clear it’s unsustainable.

2 Likes
117

FWIW, I made the decision last year to avoid Amazon (because of what Jeff did to the Washington Post), and it was shockingly easy.

There are lots of other places on the internet to buy things, and most of the time (unlike Amazon) you’re not running the risk of getting a knockoff.

Avoiding Google is a bit harder, I admit, but I know plenty of people who do.

7 Likes
118

I guess insulting and belittling folks on a music forum is a good start!

1 Like
119

It’s not much but it’s honest work!

6 Likes
120

While I’d like action to happen, convincing people to take collective action when they’re too enamored by an enterprise-first authoritarian paradise is an uphill battle, especially if they see alternatives as “untenable” or nightmarish, either because they imagine it to be a resurrection of the Soviet Union, or they see that people will live in hippie communes that they find immoral over relaxed attitudes to sex and drugs, or they’re just plainly bigoted and greedy.

I say just disrupting the companies and governments that enable this shit would be the best solution now. Easier said than done.

The culture has to be changed. It won’t happen overnight even though I really wish it did.

121

I just wish folks would be civil and nice. It’s a total bummer when I see someone get shit on because of someone else’s big strong opinion.

This place should be more about community than trying to be right. More about knowledge and helping. We all could do better!

5 Likes