The Clone War - Behringer. Good or Bad?

“The result is as much the portrait of a milieu as of a family. At its heart is a tract of seventeen houses, on both sides of a street where Amatis, Stradivaris, Guarneris, Bergonzis, Rugeris, Storionis, and Cerutis coexisted. Among them, in midblock, is the Casa Amati, with several wings, a shop, and a courtyard, inherited from Nicolo’s father and grandfather…Over forty years, there seem to have been as many as seventeen [apprentices], mostly from other instrument-making centers like Padua, Bologna, Milan, and Venice. Those who could then went on to open their own shops, establish the Amati style and model in other towns, and transform it into a global standard.
Three apprentices stand out. One of the most notable is Andrea Guarneri, who opened Cremona’s second shop around 1650 and founded his own three-generational dynasty…The most tantalizing apprentice, if he was one, is Antonio Stradivari. Early instruments reflect Amati influence, but the Amati style left its marks on everyone. The Easter Monday census shows no sign of him. Coming from a local family, he had no reason to live in the master’s house, and Cremona was full of parishes other than San Faustino.
Hill colleagues and nineteenth-century biographers reported confirmations of an Amati apprenticeship. But the Hills never saw any evidence of them…Yet who can imagine that the greatest maker of them all taught himself or that, in a corporate order as hierarchical as the Church, he could have opened a shop if he had? Given Cremona’s options, if not the Amati shop, where would he have gone?” (Schoenbaum, The Violin p. 27-28)

My take (unrelated to Jukkas violin comments), Uli can be petty and unscrupulous which makes it easier to deride Behringer as a company, but there are only three reasons why competitive products should be curtailed.

  1. Fraud - e.g. Behringer copies Arturia’s Keystep and labels it “A genuine Arturia Keystep, get the original!”
  2. Plagiarism - e.g. Behringer copies the Keystep as the Swing and they claim to be the original creators of the world’s first portable, step-sequencer keyboard controller. They claim Arturia copied them.
  3. Monopoly creation - e.g. Behringer undercuts and then buys out all competing instrument companies with the goal of preventing any new companies from entering the market and controlling/gouging prices on customers who have no other options for purchasing gear.

Boutique companies are not affected by Behringer because their audience is buying them for their boutique design. A Behringer copy isn’t going to put a shop of 1-3 people handmaking eccentric pedals. People who would buy the Behringer weren’t going to buy the original, and people who wanted to buy the original will avoid the Behringer in search of status, value, quality, or genuinely wanting to support the small shop.

Larger businesses that sell to international retailers, whether they have 30 or 300 employees, all take advantage of mass production and outsourcing in the search for profit. Some treat their customers better or act a little more ethical in some situations, but they aren’t individuals trying to make a living by selling unique works of art/craft. It is their job to make their products more attractive if they want to make a profit, whether by making them cheaper, higher quality, more innovative, or improving their reputation (e.g. donate to charity, support artists, treat their workers ethically).

It isn’t all black and white and I am not making an argument in support of Uli’s business style, but every major company is in the same capitalist game as Behringer and their goal is to make money. These aren’t non-profits trying to get as many instruments into as many hands as cheaply as possible for the love of music and art. They don’t deserve consumer protection out of some strange idea of “justice” and they will succeed if they appeal to the market (again, doesn’t mean underpricing our outproducing Behringer, they can hold customers by reputation and community connection).

2 Likes

I would love to see more trust-busting today.

There are also practices that are mostly or debatably legal but harmful to competition.

You’ll find the majority of complaints based around wanting small companies to stick around for their new, innovative or at the very least interesting ideas without getting instantly undercut. Apologies if i’m misunderstanding your point here or conflating with some other post.

2 Likes

From my subjective, anecdotal perspective, most of the complaints I see fall into two categories.

  1. “Uli does slimy things (e.g. Peter Kirn), don’t give him money!”
  • Fair point, there have been multiple events over the years to earn this reputation.
  1. “Behringer is making inferior clones of treasured synths and stealing the creators’ original ideas. This is an injustice to the creators, damaging to the industry, and cheapens the art.”
  • This one seems misguided and lacking evidence. It also comes from an elitist position, regardless of whether a person wants to think of themselves as an elitist or wealthy. People attach part of their identity to a certain brand or object and their privileged access to it, whether due to cost or rarity, gives them a sense of prestige and uniqueness. It is the same in fashion, sports, cars, etc. They get pissed off when they feel their access has been devalued.

This attachment is even more fleeting in the modern world where the vast majority of these desirable objects are mass-produced and only exist through the disconnected work of hundreds or even millions of people. I adore instruments of all kinds, and I admire the work of people who bring their creative visions to the world, but few things epitomize “mundane replication” today like endless factory lines of electrical components across the world.

I am open to hearing other opinions, but I would say that no one “invents” or “discovers” any electronic consumer good. Cutting-edge electronics research occurs in labs. Businesses revise, reorganize, or combine well-established and widely available ideas and goods into new variations (with new marketing) that can be duplicated and sold within an ideal profit margin. The silliest idealization of this is easily the world of guitar pedals where 50-year-old designs and identical parts are praised for offering a nearly identical sound…but slightly different…and with a cooler logo.

In this case in particular, I think it is a little ironic that Behringer is not only copying mass-produced items, but their business tactic is to copy objects that are literally the most common/popular or to copy objects that the original companies stopped making.

Are they undercutting small companies? Are they damaging the industry and preventing innovation? Are they preventing original creators from pursuing their dreams by stealing their ideas?

If so, I think that is absolutely a reasonable argument against their products. I would also be open to accepting evidence of that if it could be presented, but I haven’t seen any.

What businesses are suffering because of Behringers products? Who is losing money because instruments that were never accessible to people with lower incomes now have similar versions that might be within reach? Are companies like Synthstrom, Chase Bliss, Meng Qi, or Critter and Guitari being chased out of business because Behringer makes cheap versions of famous pedals and synths?
The closest thing I have seen like this is with Robin Whittle’s Devilfish mod, but that doesn’t come off as a strong case to me for several reasons.

Again, I respect your point about Behringer undercutting small, innovative companies as something worth seriously considering from an ethical standpoint, but I rarely see this as a popular point being argued and I have yet to see evidence (please point me to it if you have it).

I also think that there is a lot of value in analyzing a massive company like Behringer on ethical concerns like employment treatment and wages, resource sourcing, environmental pollution and waste, etc. I rarely hear about these as issues of concern though, I mainly just hear privileged gear hoarders treating music like a social hierarchy and complaining about disrespecting the proud Moog/Korg/Roland legacy.

I will clarify that economically/politically I am opposed to many aspects of cutthroat capitalism and I think that corporations need far more government regulation and taxation. I don’t think Uli deserves to be rich or that a few large corporations should dominate all industries. But, in principal, I am opposed to the argument that businesses should be prevented/punished for making superior or inferior versions of popular goods at a cheaper price. Behringer might be the bad guys in some ways. If they were using slave labor or illegal mining to produce their clones, then the ends wouldn’t justify the means. But they aren’t the bad guys for the act of cloning itself.

Cloning rare and expensive objects to make them more accessible to a wider audience is good. It is a form of innovation and technological progress in a way. It makes the world more equitable. From bronze tools to cell phones, ideas and goods shouldn’t be privileged and protected.

4 Likes

For point 1, I do not know, I did not follow the case, I do not even understand it. In fairness, should someone link to an objective article?

For point 2, totally agree. I have been convinced for a long time that this is essentially a problem of snobbery and taking away the privilege of some, except for the cloning of current and affordable products (Arturia, Mackie …) which I find unfair.

I often hear it’ll never sound the same when
1- we criticize the cloning AND that it is not perfectly cloned, strange.
2- a vintage synth never sounds like another from the same series, we can surely say that some 303s do not “sound” 303!

Instrumental speculation prevents most musicians from using old nuggets (or recent ones, I saw a used Micromonsta 2 for € 350 yesterday … or € 100 just for a scalper).

Without B. I would never have had a “303” at home,
I only have that of them, I would definitely take a Vcs3 if it ever came out and I thank them for getting me out of my class and being able to pretend that they can have fun too without selling a kidney or a lung. Thanks to them.

People who buy Apple, order from Amazon use Spotify, or drive a Tesla, aren’t they losing their moral right to oversee the industry? Truly ?

In short, I am neither a fan nor a hater of B. and do not understand that he unleashes so many passions. So much more urgent fighting today.

2 Likes

image

Never said it was hurting the original designer. Just said it completely lacks any class or innovation.

Easy to get sales when you make a popular item someone else designed. You cut to the chase…profit without having put in any of the werk coming up with an idea or product.

Copying the sound re: an instrument…fine. But making it identical and stamping your name on it…gross.

4 Likes

Is there a difference between Arturia VST clones and Behringer ones? Other than the obvious software/hardware differences, both companies profiting off of pre existing designs, no?

2 Likes

When does an emulation become a clone? :exploding_head:

2 Likes

I think it’s somewhat different because Arturia isn’t making a Minilogue XD VST, for example. The DFAM is a pretty unique offering, and obviously a lot of thought went into designing it. Copying the design 1:1 feels a bit wrong to me.

That said this might be the first thing since the Neutron that actually looks pretty fun. Might pick one up once used prices hit 100 bucks.

1 Like

Yes

Well, at least they keep the names of the inovator and the maker and the product naming the same, they do not rename it or rebrand it, making it blue, red, green… and I am sure they do have the blessing and some for of licencing agreed from them too……its called etic, respect and innovation … none of these Behringer has. Thanks to China we are in doomed days and the price is the only point for decision making…no respect to the inovators, those who make a history. Behringer will not ever be on that list…should be on OliExpress sites onky.

3 Likes

I don’t mind Behringer existing as a company, stuff like the Deep Mind show they can offer stuff that is uniquely compelling, affordable, and innovative. what upsets me is how people champion them as some synth Robin Hood of sorts for outright stealing and undercutting the innovations of companies like Moog.

Moog is not large, at least compared to Behringer they’re not. They are a niche company operating out of a country that is very expensive to manufacture in, and are constantly developing new and unique products by continually investing in R&D. Estimated at about $30 Million per year in revenue. Music Tribe (Behringer) on the other hand, make an estimated $400 Million a year.

This is not some David and Goliath situation, Behringer is a much larger company than Moog and obviously have no issues with taking a competitors’ idea and manufacturing it for peanuts in a country without environmental regulations or proper compensation for the workers who make these products. The ethics ARE dubious.

I don’t want to go into a huge tangent about the environmental strain and human exploitation overseas electronics manufacturing has been built off of, it’s place in our daily lives is unavoidable and even a place like Moog benefits no doubt as I’m sure the electronics inside their synths are still sourced overseas so they reap the benefits there as well.

TL;DR:
I feel that some of Behringer’s more unique offerings like the Deep Mind or their recreations of old discontinued classics are cool, but copying and undercutting unique designs from employee-owned boutique manufacturers by leveraging overseas worker exploitation rubs me the wrong way.

7 Likes

So i fact checked.

Talking about the Arturia VST products :

How sure ?

Then why do they call them ? :

  • Jun-6 V
  • Jup-8 V 4
  • OB-Xa V
  • Stage-73 V 2 ( after Rhodes Stage 73 )
  • Mellotron V
  • ARP2600 V
  • Prophet V
  • Vox Continental V
  • Wurli V
  • Farfisa V
  • Solina V
  • Synclavier V
  • B-3 V
  • Chorus DIMENSION-D ( after Roland Dimension D etc)
  • Etc …

Notice the “V” at the end and morphing Jupiter to Jup, etc. Isn’t that a way around copyright protection ? I searched their website for the standard, “XYZ is copyrighted by Roland Corporation and is used by permission” sort of thing and did not find it. Perhaps someone else can find the list of all the “used with permissions”.

I suggest these names were all vetted to not be copyright infringements, rather than them acquiring rights and then disguising things.

Behringer is working with Vladimir Kuzmin to create a new version of Polivoks. So that is an example of both respect to the creator, and innovation together, albeit a pragmatic one.

That can be compared to how Korg got the rights to “ARP” and were founding contributors to the Alan R. Pearlman Foundation.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Behringer has done plenty of things i would not defend, i’m just fact checking.

1 Like

You DO realize V = virtual…right?

Prophet looks like Prophet. :thinking:
It’s not written as Prawfet :rofl:
And aren’t they doing some kind of licensing unless otherwise and open source situation like Mutable Instruments?

1 Like

Of course, and that gets added to make the name different enough.

Maybe ? I’m saying i found nothing to indicate they are as would be required.

So I spent about 1min to just find this…you would NEVER see or hear this from B

From the manual

1 Like

All trademarks are the property of the respective owners.

Page two of the Behringer 2600 manual.

This is standard boiler plate, that gets applied. It doesn’t mean we got permission to use the name for our product. Those are two different things.

Respect please no personal attacks.

That’s just a quick poke in the manual. In the Arturia vids for their products they talk about werking with “said company” to develop the “most try to life sounding blah blah blah” market schpiel. I don’t think B werks with anyone to try to pay tribute to said product.
And again re: vst, I’m certain there is a licensing fee to be able to use the image of said gear.
I know just from games I’ve werked on and the big to do with Gran Turismo, you gotta pay to use the image. We, on our game could not call an M16 and M16. And we had to make it look different, unless we paid to use it’s image. [no idea who that was paid to]. And GT was getting hit for having buildings i their game. So, how do you do a race thru a given city without iconic buildings. It’s crazy.
I’m trying to find out the reqs for vst dev, but I don’t know the right question or where to look. I could write a synth co and see what they say. :face_with_monocle:
Maybe I’ll write Roland and see what they say

One thing you will note: they dont clone any synths that weren’t hits right :wink:

Oh that’s not the part I was talking about.

It was the “thank you” to Yamaha. :slight_smile:

And then Yamaha probably says thank you for every $1 they get on each seat sold :wink:

I just cited Vladimir Kuzmin.

Another person Behringer is working with is Hiroaki Nishijima.

Is that the sort of thing you mean ?

I’m not justifying much of what Behringer does. I would have had them do many things very differently. For instance i’d get them out of the overt, but legal, copying of currently in production products. They don’t need to do that.

3 Likes