That one time the sidstation was at the center of an international sampling controversy

The Lounge General Discussion
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TLDR: old news - Timbaland ripped off a small time chip-tune musician, acted like a jerk about it and got away scott free - still getting paid royalties to this day. How does that sit with you?

So this may or may not be a well known story, but waaayy back in 2005, Timbaland sampled what he “thought” was a commodore 64 video game song by playing back the ASID file on his Elektron Sidstation, then used large portions of it in his own production of a ringtone called “block party”, and then the block party beat was later reworked into a break on the song “do it” which was released as part of Nelly Furtado’s mid 2006 dance-pop album “loose” thus sparking a controversy which proved just how little respect the proverbial small-time musician gets in a court of law.

Because as it turned out, as with most good things you didn’t create but used anyways, the “video game” song in question (acidjazzed evening) was not just some catchy long forgotten C-64 tune, it was actually a work by Finnish demo-scener Janne Sunni (Tempest) from circa Y2K, which had (with permission) been added to a compilation of songs which had in 2002 (with permission) been re-mapped by Glenn R. Gallefoss (GRG) to play on a commodore 64 native music program and this release is the version Timbo got a hold of and “borrowed”.

So without further ado - the comparison of the works:

Timbaland and Busta Rhymes in studio, sidstation prominently on display.

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As early as July 2006 people on the internet were bringing attention to the sample-gate status of the Nelly Furtado track and subsequently there were some attempts by Sunni to file an infringement suit against Nelly Furtado’s publishing in Finland, Universal Music ltd. Turns out Timbaland felt literally no remorse about this, was rather derogatory in referencing the artist and went on record calling the whole thing ridiculous. Although he admitted to sampling the other work, he implied his time “in the game” gave him pedigree over the other musician thus he had carte blanche and basically laughed it all off as a joke (in the most obnoxious way possible).

Just an eye opening event that shows how much easier it is for the big guy to rip off the little guy and get away with it - unfortunately this time around, Sidstation made it really easy for the big guy. Goes to show, keep track of what you put out into the world or it might come back on someone else’s royalty check.

Some of you I’m sure were already aware of this but any thoughts about this type of sampling? is this different than the type of sampling “we” do when we hunt down some “forgotten” break on a record or find some sample-worthy video game sound/ cool video / random non public domain pre-published sound source? I’d like to think that when I grab a sample I’m not the evil mastermind behind robbing someone of their work but is there a difference? I’m not releasing anything like that for profit, that’s certainly different (in my opinion at least).

Any thoughts on this event, Timbaland or sampling in general? I searched before I made this post and was surprised to find only a vague joke reference to “if Timbaland stole my beat…” but aside from that, it looks like this was never a topic of discussion.

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I don’t know how others go about it, but if I sample something that isn’t in the public domain or doesn’t have a license permitting such use, I get permission if I’m releasing anything containing the sample. If I can’t, I won’t release it.

The difference between a big name and a small name sampling something they don’t have permission for and releasing it, is that the big name always knows what they are doing. Otherwise they are the same thing. The scale of course is wildly different.

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My thoughts are that Timbaland made some good tunes and I’ll listen to Da Real World today.

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Bit of a wanker.
Wanky to use a whole phrase unaltered.
Wanky to not give any credit.
Wanky attitude to the composer.
Sampling can be a creative art form, this was just boring uncreative plagiarism.

I remember seeing this story on some blogs back then, and I thought “what a wanker” still feel the same about it.

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I take a slightly more Realpolitik view of things. Facts were then as they are now, big names and big labels do whatever they want, nothing anyone can do to stop them.

Sure, you can take a stand and try and get them to stop it (or at least credit your work) by force, which absolutely won’t work at all. Or you could use the exposure to your advantage and accept that, yes, this is some bullshit, but if it leads to more ears on your tunes/bodies at your gigs, then overall you might be able to turn it into a positive.

I know, sounds like I’m siding with the bad guys here, but what are you gonna do, really?

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Sounds like a pragmatic approach to siding with the little guy, to me.

(It also sounds like giving up on rule of law; but since the big guys already did that, wotcha gonna do?)

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http://youtube.com/shorts/P02S2rnsiBY?feature=share

The legal outcome of this one surprised me.

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…the idea, that an idea can also have a value, was a big step in civilisation…
but the only constant thing in time is change…
the days of copyrights, as we know them, are coming to an end…
bad for arts, good for medication and such things…
there was a time, timbo was one of my heros…
and to give him some credit, he used/sampled whole musical phrases not very often…
pretty much all other biggis in hiphop did that way way more…some even shamelessly, that their “little” steal was the only real idea in the whole track…
while timbo in his prime, almost never had to rely on such shady biz…he created wide a list of tracks that sparkled full of fresh and original ideas…
and the art of chiptune music always sounds kind of kiddish by “nature” and defenition…pretty easy to not take it too seriously when it comes to cherry pick some next samples…

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Lot to unpack with the Timbaland example. He’s certainly a douche if he didn’t acknowledge the situation, but it also seems to be a kind of borderline sampling - he was using a re-mapping of the tune, and then playing that back as an asid file, so he’s twice removed from the source. Copyright still applies (as it would have if he was “just” using a game soundtrack as he originally thought), but it seems to be at least on the border between sampling and interpretation.

But even that’s complicated, because an asid file probably isn’t very different to a recording - it’s not like a MIDI file where you can plug in any old instrument at the end of the chain and alter the end result. Like an MP3, it sounds like it’s a set of digital data that reproduces the original. So sampling an asid file being played might be equivalent to sampling a CD, for example.

And then on top of all that are the usual quandaries you face if you’re in favour of permissive sampling rights - they should apply to Timbaland just as equally as they do to a teenager in a bedroom with a janky old laptop. My own moral perspective is that acknowledgement and attribution are the central requirements - that’s what I’d found my sampling laws on, so it sounds like Timbaland failed on that count and would be thrown in jail under my benevolent dictatorship. A shame for him, but I still think more people would be happy overall. Well, one day,

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This is how I feel too. If I was lucky enough to get ripped off by Timbaland I would be using that to my advantage not lining the pockets of lawyers

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It’s ok to do whatever you want when your not making any money off of it and if one unlikely day you do then that’s the time to expand that belief to include making money off of doing whatever you want. Shifting values is a valuable human characteristic.

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Timbaland is rummaging through the current sounds thread. Fingers crossed he picks my shit music!

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Re the “they should be grateful for the exposure” both Janne Sunni and GRG are pretty high profile demoscene musicians anyway, plus I doubt they would gain anything meaningful from Timbaland or Nelly Furtado fans, who are most likely oblivious to the origins anyway.

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It is a bit like midi in the way it plays back, but it’s more akin to a player piano. Like, it only makes one sound, you feed it the roll of music and it plays back the notes in that one voice.

But with the ASID player I think you can mute a channel - so if the file has 3 channels, you could play back 2 out of 3.

Regardless, I think I agree with what everyone is saying. It’s a bit of a dick move, the way he handled it is a dick move, if you got your shit sampled by a major artist it’s a bit flattering but it’s also a bit of a slap in the face so you just have to make the best of it. If you have money to go to court do it, if you don’t? then try your best to leverage it.

So I don’t know, I see the side where you just have to make the best of the situation, but I also see where the original artist and the people in the scene where they take making chiptunes as a serious artform would feel like they got slapped.

I mean song rights do apply differently from a legal standpoint than sampling someone’s recording, but what’s the purpose of the song registration process if it only applies to some people?

Also with the example given of Dua Lipa, it’s hard to deny the similarity between the songs in question but it also goes to show that if you can’t prove your case to within a window of reasonable proof (if not beyond a shadow of a doubt) then you may be screwed from a legal perspective because the courts or the law will always require you to fill out your forms and present your case according to the letter of the law - no room for interpretation on that.

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I tried to avoid putting it that way deliberately because I don’t think they should be grateful for the exposure. But exposure is exposure, the industry is a complete cunt and the ones at the top of the food chain will always win. Fight them if you want, people should always be given the opportunity to defend themselves and their work, but unless you can afford better lawyers than them (spoiler, you can’t) then you ain’t gonna win.

Timbaland isn’t the problem (I mean, yeah, he’s an arsehole, but he’s just doing what he’s being allowed to do), systemic inequality and legal accessibility is the problem.

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I can’t quite put my finger on it, IP (intellectual property) doesn’t completely sit well with me yet if a popular entity blatantly took my creative work I would be upset.

On one hand money making popular music seems more about winning a popularity contest than a song or idea being “quality.”

Ideas seem to come out of thin air and are often shared in zeitgeist fashion, but biting is basically theft.
Sampling/re-contextualizing is sort of a grey area for me.

Reminds me of hearing Jack White bitching about the Black Keys ripping him off yet he made a high profile career re-imagining what so many had done before, such as Led Zeppelin.

One of my favorite albums is Paul’s Boutique.
I’m also a huge fan of how hip hop can flip a sample/idea, but when it’s not “flipped” enough I tend to frown on it.

It happens in movies SO MUCH. Same with stand up comedy.

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Funny thing is these type of knobheads would lawyer up if someone did the same thing to them.

But you are right there isn’t a fight to be had, unless you are an established pop star with a legal team behind you.

Legally it is wrong, morally it is wrong, but that does not mean anything unless you are in a position to fight it in court.

Also, sampling being such an important part of modern musical culture, bitch moves like this (not to mention the lack of anything creative in this useage) are pretty disrespectful of sampling as an art form IMHO.

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When art, music etc is viewed as content or as a product, to be consumed and as such tries to make profit, either as a consequence, or either as a goal then thats what you get.
If we want to be actually fair, whoever chooses to release music through labels, the label should pay like a big chunk of money to an international organisation whose job is to share that money amongst every single poor person with half a brain that can come up with more than a sentence to describe somebody’s work of art. Or.
All i mean is influences are everywhere, and instead of having a copyright police that makes people pay for being influenced by anything, we should encourage getting interested in art and stuff, and not punish people. Corporations are not people, they are systems and as such they are different. But most of us agree they are scum.
Maybe all music should he free, and art too, and we should be getting payed for even getting interested in it, and all ideas should be free to roam around and influence people and make them have more ideas. Instead we try to make a system to police, not only what we express, but also where it came from. To me this sounds like a totalitarian dystopia. And i think we might be living in it already.

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For reference, examples of Totalitarian Dystopias could include such countries as North Korea, Saudi Arabia or Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

Unless you live in such a place I think it’s safe to say you don’t live in a Totalitarian Dystopia.

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If you drop the 17 year old drama you will end up with the discussion around ethics of sampling which was beaten to death over the last 4 decades.

That one time the sidstation was at the center of an international sampling controversy

That one time the Lincoln Continental was at the center of presidential assassination controversy

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