Rytm Mk2 Individual Outs - Balanced?

[Versipellis]

Anyone know if the AR2’s TRS individual outs are balanced? I was just looking at this thread and avantronica seems to indicate that they were unbalanced on the AR1. The manual for the AR2 says this though:

“9. TRACK OUT. Individual drum voice outputs. Use either 1/4” mono phone plugs (unbalanced connection)
or 1/4” (Tip/Ring/Sleeve) phone plugs (balanced connection).”

However, it doesn’t seem clear to me whether this is stating that the output is balanced, or that balanced TRS cables work as well.

[avantronica]

It’s ambiguous from the specifications

The words impedance balanced are specifically next to mains, yet both groups of outputs are equally hot, so may be specified the same - definitely not possible on the Mk1 - it looks like it might well be from the above specific comment on Mk2

[Versipellis]

That was what was confusing me too. On the right side, under hardware, it says “impedance balanced individual track output jacks” - so I’m assuming so as well, but not entirely sure.

[avantronica]

i hadn’t browsed the right side - so quite clear they are impedance balanced

[tnussb]

However, it doesn’t seem clear to me whether this is stating that the output is balanced, or that balanced TRS cables work as well.

Short answer: you can treat these impedance balanced outputs just like differential balanced outs. Plug TRS cables into them and connect the other end to a balanced input.

More details:

In contrast to a differential balanced signal where the second wire transmits an “upside-down” signal an impedance balanced signal uses common ground on the second wire which reduces the hardware costs at the source (requires just 1 amplifier instead of two).

From an user perspective impedance balanced signal transmission is also fully balanced and will reject common-mode interferences.

There are some minor benefits when using differential balanced signals. I’m too lazy to list them all, but if you are interested you can read this wikipedia page (especially section “Differential signalling”).

[wickfut]

Yeah. I bought a cheap 8 way TRS to XLR loom for my RYTM mk2. Works fine. I wish it just cut the individual tracks from the stereo pair though so I could use the stereo outs to have panning effects on some sounds.

edit: just discovered I can mute pads I use on the direct outs so I can still use stereo effects. I should read the damn manual some time.

[_stat]

• @wickfut, are you guys using this TRS - XLR solution for the shared pads as well? I was wondering if you experience any trouble if you use these cables for RS/CP for instance. It made me also wonder how the panning automation or LFO related pan information is getting to the mixer - does your signal on the main out contain this information?

[tnussb]

mono outputs using mic pres

What’s the point of using the line level mono outputs with mic preamps?

[avantronica]

outputs are all balanced to mic level

Mic level is significantly weaker than the outs from the AR. Probably orders of magnitude smaller

[Versipellis]

They are certainly not outputting at mic level.

These are the specs sheet:

ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Impedance balanced audio outputs:
Main outputs level: +15 dBu
Output impedance: 440 Ω unbalanced
Individual outputs:
Output level: +15 dBu
Output Impedance: 440 Ω

[avantronica]

A microphone will output in small fractions of Volts, mV territory whereas the AR outs can technically output 10+V peak to peak

There is no issue with you adding gain/colour to the indi outputs by any method you like (assuming compatibility), the problem was implying the Mk2 individual outputs are in the same ballpark as Mic level; ‘mic’ shouldn’t have been part of the explanation, that’s all - the outputs are capable of being hot, that’s why it’s possibly puzzling to use a preamp, but the reference to Mic level is the issue

[ANON20yhouse530]

What’s the point of using the line level mono outputs with mic preamps?

I probably shouldn’t have been too laymen in my explanation, but the correct answer for using XLR outputs into mic preamps is for gain and color vs using TS/TRS Line Out from the ARMK2. I will steal part of @avantronica answer.

[tnussb]

but the output impedance on the AR MK2 does match perfectly to low level mic preamp inputs with great results.

There isn’t any difference in impedance between using the balanced signal or just one side. Both have an impedance of 440 Ω, which is quite standard for line level outs and this is not a perfect match for a mic preamp input.

Mic preamp inputs are designed to connect to high-z outputs (several kΩ). Of course you can drive them also from low-z outputs (like line level outs), but that’s far from perfect.

[Versipellis]

As the OP of the thread, I would much prefer the thread not be used to spread misinformation…

[_stat]

so … is there a conclusion in terms of ideal choices when connecting the individual outputs (of separate and connected pads as well) to a mixer? Just simply TS - TS as those cables are relatively short anyway? Or as @tnussb wrote TRS - TRS gives better sonic results as the outputs of the Rytm MK2 are balanced (and let’s say that the inputs of the mixer are balanced as well)? Or @ANON20yhouse530’s solution of TRS - XLR as it gives a direct connection to mic preamps? Also using the main outputs for FX & Pan information and automation (with individual tracks muted) using TS - TS cables sounds the way to go?

[avantronica]

using TS - TS cables sounds the way to go?

For the vast majority of users and use cases this will be sufficient, absolutely no harm in using TRS cables especially if more of your equipment is able to use those and you are happy to pay a little bit more, but the choice shouldn’t be predicated on quality or level - the most valid reason would be for long cable runs in a noisy(electrically) environment

This holds true for the main outs for most if us too, i doubt many people would tell the audio difference of a short run for unbalanced cabling apart from a balanced equivalent in a normal environment - but if your setup is static or lots of gear can use TRS etc then why not, it won’t do any harm

[ANON20yhouse530]

As the OP of the thread, I would much prefer the thread not be used to spread misinformation…

I apologize and deleted my contribution to your thread. No hard feelings.

[Versipellis]

Long cable runs, or if you’re crossing a lot of power cables. The balanced vs unbalanced makes an audible difference in my live gigging flight case, where I’ve audio, power, and CV carrying cables running in close proximity and/or bundles.

[luke.danielson]

This may have been answered already, so apologies, but I am confused as to if the individual outputs can send in stereo or not (say if the pad is just a stereo sample, and using a TRS y-split cable).

I am using the AR like many others: individual outs muted to master outs, and routed into an interface/preamp individually, with master fx only on master AR outputs (also routed into interface).

Question I have, just to confirm: Are the individual outputs Mono no matter what? Can they be stereo? I am using balanced TRS cables for each output, into a preamp strip, however, each are coming in as Mono.

I’ve read through some threads here that mention achieving stereo by using y-splitter TRS cables for each AR individual output. Is this true? IE, if I theoretically had a 16 input channels on my interface, could I record the 8 outputs (independent of fx) in stereo (with 8 y-split cables)?

Thanks for the help!

[finalform]

The mk2 individual outs are mono, as are all samples on the Rytm.

The Y-splitter TRS thing is only relevant to mk1s, which had the eight voices coming out of four TRS outputs, one voice on each tip, one on each ring. The Y-splitter simply allows you to get two voices out of one jack socket, not a stereo signal.