Octatrack midi CC assign trouble

The Lounge Other Gear
1

Hello everyone,

I saw a thread from a few years back with exactly this issue but no sufficient answer, so I decided to start this one.

Basically, im trying to assign my CC parameters from the Ensoniq SQ80 to the assignable cc knobs on my OT. Attempting to use MIDI learn doesn’t work (maybe the sq80 is too old for this sort of midi functionality?). If any of you might know a reason this may be then please let me know. However, I’m not really fussed with assigning the parameters manually.

The MIDI assign number page in the SQ80 manual is set out as shown below:

Screen Shot 2017-08-30 at 17.03.38.png1692×1308 364 KB

I don’t really understand this. As you can see, the numbers go above 127 (I thought CC params go 0-127)? There are also further numbers and letters following each initial number, and the numbers seem to be set out into two different types (dec & hex)? Most importantly however, when selecting e.g. 110 (for filter cutoff) on one of the assignable cc knobs, the knob doesn’t have any effect on this parameter?

The parameters are definitely assignable as midi controllers like this exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2b7zEbA_3g

If someone with a better knowledge of midi or just any insight as to why this isn’t working could point me in the right direction, that would be great :slight_smile:

FYI my midi chain is:
ot midi out > sq80 midi in
sq80 midi thru > soundcard midi in
oundcard midi out > ot midi in

On the SQ80 I have multi-mode enabled and keys+ct+pc+ss+sx selected. I also have the SQ80 sending and ot receiving on the same midi channel (10).

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Another thing probably worth you guys knowing is that cc2, which is automatically assigned to midi param 1 (the mod wheel) works, and I am able to adjust the wheels param setting from the ot.

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Maybe only these Control Changes works :

Screenshot_2017-08-30-18-28-28.png720×1280 252 KB

Check this too :
Screenshot_2017-08-30-18-29-15.png1280×720 187 KB

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4

Thnx for the quick follow up!

As in the parameters shown in the ‘control change’ box? Surely that isn’t the case though as how would midi controllers like the one I linked be possible?

As for the second picture, I’ve got that setting selected, so I don’t think the problem lies there.

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the manual is listing the “decimal - hexadecimal” codes for the parameters… not the CC numbers

thats why its 111 6E, or 127 7F, or 131 83, etc. etc. etc.

as sezare56 was saying… it only recognizes those CC#s listed in that little box: mod wheel, breath, foot, data, vol, inc, dec, param, param

doesnt look like it will respond to MIDI CC on those parameter controls… you have to use SysEx to do that

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6

The fragments of the manual that you presented show that the full list of parameters can be accessed by MIDI NRPN messages. This is mentioned in the notes to the Stereoping video that you linked to. Only the abbreviated list quoted by another poster above are accessible by MIDI CC message. The OT will not readily send NRPNs; you will need another device.

As it stands, you can use aftertouch and mod wheel, plus a single MIDI CC message from the OT as the assignable modulation source (XCTRL) on the SQ-80.

Also, this is nothing to do with SysEx.

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i know how you so love to be right, but sorry - as you are quite wrong here… you most certainly can use SysEx to make parameter changes on the SQ80 and ESQ1

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You may be able to use a midi solutions event processor to map the CC from the octatrack to NRPN controls that the SQ80 uses

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

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Develop the original thread, make it useful, don’t make more identical threads, that only dilutes the search results …

point the thread out to any Mod and it can then be merged if appropriate

https://www.elektronauts.com/faq

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Firstly, to be fair, Peter hadn’t even said you can’t use Sysex to make parameter changes on the SQ80, he just mentioned that the documented info linked/discussed above was related to NRPN messages (not a sysex msg btw, although the device evidently needs the sysex mode to be active to interpret incoming NRPN messages )

But basically, even if you’re right or wrong (it doesn’t look like Peter said anything inaccurate or unhelpful here imho btw) it doesn’t matter … nobody really likes to see people spoken to in an unfriendly and possibly patronising manner, wouldn’t you agree! … please keep it civil even when contesting an opinion (and perhaps re-read what he actually wrote)

In terms of helping the OP along, it does indeed look like NRPN strings are the way forward … I know some Roland devices (unusually) allow sysex editing of discrete parameters cherry picked from the global parameter dump, but it isn’t obvious at first glance that this is even possible here, it might be (otherwise it’s just a complete patch dump by sysex I guess, not remotely as useful)

The parameter numbers may coincidentally be position pointers to slots on the useful part of the program sysex dump, so the manufacturer eschewed mapping remaining ‘spare’ CCs (Elektron style) even though some(maybe all) of these parameters may not need added bit depth (users talk of seeing CC6 which means it’s only 7bit data sent by three CC messages) (it just looks like there’s quite a few parameters, i.e. more than there’d be spare)

—[quote=“Finiiiie, post:1, topic:44014”]
If someone with a better knowledge of midi or just any insight as to why this isn’t working could point me in the right direction, that would be great
[/quote]

This might help : to assemble an NRPN message string you supply 4(or 3) consecutive CC messages

1 CC99 val=param_ID MSB
2 CC98 val=param_ID LSB
3 CC6 val=param_value MSB
4 CC38 val=param_value LSB (optional for fine control )

SQ80 may only use the first three

so for your filter cutoff (110 6E) you’d send the following three CCs (which you can probably do on the OT in a clunky fashion)

1st) 99 6
2nd) 98 E
3rd) 6 $

Where E is 14 in Decimal (the Least Significant Byte from 6E) and $ is the variable cutoff value (0-127 probably)

Once you’ve sent 1 & 2 once you may get away with just varying 3 by sending CC6 , but that’d only work for the last set parameter

hth

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I apologise for my naivety here, but how exactly would you use SysEX to do this?

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So a device that converts NRPN to CC would make this possible? Like the one in the stereoping video? Or even the one suggested below?

Thnx! Do you have any idea which CC XCTRL is? I can’t see it in the abbreviated list.

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Sorry, because it was 4 years old, I wasn’t sure if the users would still be active. Will do so next time.

Thanks for the help. Ive read into hexadecimal & NRPN and I get it a bit more. Just to clarify / break it down though, you’re saying that you can adjust a NRPN parameter by using three different CC’s (98,99 & 6)? I take it this only allows for one param per midi track?

And so for the example of filter cutoff, if I set CC98 to 6 and CC99 to 14, then CC6 should be now control the filter cutoff? I’ve set it up on my OT as so and still not having any luck :confused:

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Basically yes. (It would actually convert the MIDI CC messages from the OT to MIDI NRPN messages that the SQ can understand.)

On the SQ-80, you define which MIDI CC message number the XCTRL modulation source follows. It’s set in the “MIDI” page of the SQ-80.

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lol NRPN is one of the most irritating Midi variation ideas …

it’s like having different interpretations of cascading style sheets in the document object model of internet browsers.

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NRPN messages are still only ordinary CC messages at the end of the day, the crucial bit is sending them in the right order

You need to verify that the OT is first sending the CC99 value of 6 (not what you typed, see my post) and then the CC98 value of 14 and then the CC6 value of whatever

this may be an impractical solution, but I was just settling your mind about what needs to happen here … this is nothing to do with sysex (you DO have to enable sysex rcv on the device though)

No, there are ten per track iirc, so you only need to send the appropriate values for CC99/98 from one/two plocked steps perhaps and follow this by the CC6 values … the SQ may or may not be happy about subsequent variations to CC6 if it doesn’t rcv the NRPN set up first, i’m not sure, some midi devices allow Pre configuring and then will respond to single params correctly, this saves sending all those excessive extra bytes when they’re not changing

you need to do this EDIT: see post below for clarifications since trying this

plock cc99 on step 1 with a value of 6
plock cc98 on step 2 with a value of 14
plock cc99 on step 5 with a value derived from a random LFO in HOLD mode (set/lock cc to 64 and increase LFO depth to taste)

if all’s going well, then the filter cutoff should vary obviously every bar (high depth)

now try adding another cc6 at step 13 and listen to see if the filter cutoff is being modulated, this would mean that you only need to set up the parameter ID once … so to test you’ll need a bright sound and drone it for a bar

this isn’t to make the OT the ideal partner, it’s just to ascertain what you may want to try next

it would be simple e.g. to take an axoloti board and write a midi translator to convert CC messages to viable NRPN strings just using the DIN MIDI i/o … the board does so much more than that and may be fun if you want digital modular sound dabbling and or a USB midi host and so on, but it takes a certain type to adapt to it

the device you see in the video is taking CC messages and mapping/formatting them into NRPN message strings … it’s quite straightforward conceptually you just need to map the parameter id as described above for 110/6E to a CC

I’m tempted to test the OT out for this on an NRPN device but I’m not sure I have any that only work with 7bit data

it would get far more messy if the data was higher than 0-127 as you then need to do maths to split the value across two cc messages (the CC6 and then CC38)

the SQ is a simpler case study

it may help you to use a PC midi monitor to track what the OT is actually sending out btw

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on the subject of 7bit devices, if an external midi control surface that only worked at 7bit were to be used with the Octatrack, would that impact on the clarity and precision, when using an external fader to control individual track levels, or an external rotary individual freq parameters, etc?

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all the OT stuff deals/responds to 7bit only (even down to 7bit pitchbend), so 7bit control from ext.midi will suit the OT just fine i’d say … for most cases this is probably best/most convenient

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argh: I lost a whole detailed reply that was drafted here …

normally when the battery dies the editing session is stored fine on elektronauts, not in this case somehow, never happened before

anyway, a correction to the idea posted above, having tried it out.

tbh, it was a long write-as-I-go-along report on the nuances of NRPN assignments

I’m not going to go through the detail again

suffice it to say it can be done but there are caveats

the best thing to do is to align three consecutive controller slots on the OT (maybe 5 6 7 or 8 9 10 )

assign cc99 cc98 cc6 then p-lock the values ( or just set def values 6 14 0 and vary/lock the last one )

note that the OT only sends changes once a value is sent once, so it will send the NRPN IDs once and then only the varying cc6 value

suffice to say it can get messy, but fundamentally the process works better than I expected, but the SQ may perform differently to the microkorg (the only 7bit nrpn device I have) I tested it with

the longer vanished post had more insights, but it was a tedious exploration, i’d tried stacking 3x3 NRPNs on a single track (using 9 Ctrl slots i.e.3 x cc99/98/6 with different IDs) to see what could work, but it didn’t play out as I expected

It definitely works and it can all be set up on one step using consecutive controllers (should work for 7bit or higher using 4 ctrls)

may need patience and a midi monitor to see what the OT is actually sending when

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Hey, thnx for this. I gave up on attempting to get this working last month but thought I’d give it another pop now, so apologies for the slow response. Still not having much luck, but determined to get to the bottom of this.

Just to clarify, I have 3 cc’s set up (on 4, 5 & 6), the (cc 99, cc98, cc 6). I have them enabled on my OT, and have the default value for 99 set to 6 and 98 set to 14. I have all midi messages enabled on my sq80, and it surely can’t be anything to do with the midi set up as when assigning cc1 to one of the cc assignable modulators on the SQ80, the ot successfully modulates it. So if im not mistaken, at this point adjusting cc6 should automate the sq80’s filter cutoff? Its not having any effect when doing so. I haven’t p-locked any of the cc settings, but you don’t need to right? I did experiment with p-locking cc99 to step 1 and cc98 to step 2, but still no luck.

I downloaded a midi monitor, but unsure of what I am looking for here? It registered movement of cc6 param, but still no effect. Is there a chance that the SQ80’s NRPN just isn’t compatible in this chaining format?

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