Thereās something enticing about a dedicated device like a Force or an MPC, but you are absolutely right ā it would go against my goal of enhancing my existing DAW workflow. Overlapping workflows mostly just add complexity (file management, transferring samples, learning new ways of doing things, etc).
Disclaimer: Rational behavior in the present does not guarantee rational behavior in the future.
If anybody is interested about my thought process, here is where I stand at the moment:
I jammed on my A4 today and tried to figure out what makes its workflow click with me, and how can I approximate it while working ITB. It basically boils down to the sequencer, the performance macros, the tactility, the pattern-based workflow, and, importantly, the inherent limitations of the device itself.
So maybe improving my ITB workflow means recreating those interactions with purposeful project setup and some suitable MIDI controllers. Live is perfectly capable of doing this.
Step one for me will be to leverage Liveās scene mode instead of doing everything in arrangement mode. Iāll start by jamming some 16-64 step clips/patterns and then build out tracks by copying and evolving these patterns, exactly like on the A4.
Step two will be getting a Launchpad Pro MK3 for sequencing, copying, overdubbing, deleting, and launching these patterns on the fly without using a mouse. The LPP is small, slim, capable, not too expensive. (Thanks to all who shared their thoughts about it here in this thread, btw.)
Then, to complement the Launchpad, Iād like to get a second small controller with knobs because knobs are cool for experimenting with things on the fly and recording automation live. The A4 has 10 knobs and thatās more than enough. One can only twist two at a time anyway. So I will look for a device with just enough knobs, maybe 8 is a good number. Not sure yet if itās better to get endless encoders or knobs with limits. @crispi is right that there are considerable differences in use/behavior. Faderfox is still on top of my list, but I will check for cheaper/smaller alternatives.
Lastly, when it comes to inherent limitations, I will curate a selection of samples and choose a VST to play the role of the sound generator. I am thinking Serum because I know it well. On the A4 at no point do I have to think about what āengineā to load, and thatās liberating. There are 2 oscillators, some envelopes, filters, and thatās all. These limitations eliminate entire layers of decision making from the process. So I will also limit effects to LFO Tool, and a delay and a reverb for send FX. As for EQ, compression, etc. etc. ā these will not be allowed in the creation phase, just like they arenāt major considerations when jamming ideas on the A4. Maintaining creative flow is the goal here. I think this will help me build full tracks instead of just loops.
All this lends itself nicely to templating, too.
If you guys have any thoughts about this workflow or have recommendations about knobby controllers, let me know.
Was about to pull the trigger on a LPP3 but then saw a used Push 2 for a very good price. I think it might just do the trick. I really wanted a controller with both pads and encoders, but didnāt feel like supplementing the LPP3 with an expensive Faderfox or a Midi Fighter Twister. The Push has both, and the tight integration with Live will be a bonus. I will give it a fair shot (I didnāt really explore all its possibilities when I had one in the past) and see if it works for me this time.
You canāt go wrong with a Push. But you have to commit to using it and avoid reaching for the mouse (unless strictly needed).
Push is one of the most common gear that people sell and buy back. Wonder why. Iām on my third still figuring out if I really need it.
Also try to set it between the computer keyboard and computer monitor so that itās natural to reach for it during production. When I had it mounted on a Jaspers by the side I was less productive with it.
As someone who has also tried a lot of different boxes, and from the way you are describing it, you arenāt ever going to be happy.
Either youāll have access to comprehensive tools and itās tedious and time consuming ( Octatrack ), or itās an incredibly simple box thatās immediate, playable and fun to use but has a ālimitedā sound ( Aira TR-8 ). You can keep bouncing around purchases plan the dream rig and feed the industry money, or just sit down and make actual music regardless of what you have.
So which is it, do you want to be a gear collector or a music artist?
Polyend Play (the midi side)
I am liking it so far. Gives me just enough of that tactility that I was seeking. Some knobs to turn, some pads to hit. Just something to āfeelā the DAW more. Pretty silly, really. I feel like I still prefer to sequence with the mouse, though. Just feels so fast and precise. But itās nice to have the step sequencer on the pads too, for a more performance-like workflow which has its creative place and merit as well.
Whatās really cool about the Push is that, unlike what it would have been with a MIDI Fighter Twister or a Faderfox, all the parameters are automatically mapped and shown on the display. Itās very easy to just click a button, grab and encoder, and go. No complicated setup.
I feel like I really lucked out with my choice! The Push is like a combination of a Launchpad Pro and a Faderfox, designed specifically for Live. And I got it for the price of just one of those devices.
I definitely want to be the latter (most of us probably do). I agree with your take 1000%. Itās such a simple truth and yet sometimes it is so hard to followā¦
So you ended up with the Push. I just ordered an Electra One to complement it. My plan is that Push can control all Ableton devices and Electra One can control all VSTs getting hands on control over almost everything. Both can control the mixer and master effects but I could still see a third controller here with faders and extra knobs like Faderfox MX12. Not sure if actually needed once again since both Push and Electra can do it (without the faders though).
Where did you order the Electra one from?
Itās a preorder but they should deliver it during July as some people are already receiving theirs https://www.electra.one/order
Hey guys, quick update in case it might be useful.
Iāve recently tried the Keystep + Faderfox EC4 combo to see if itās any better than my Push 2. Turns out, for me, itās not.
I had two issues with the Push that were making me dislike it: (1) its limitations as a āstandaloneā device and (2) its ergonomics and footprint. Iāve been able to resolve both.
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Iāve stopped expecting it to be the centerpiece of my workflow. My computer keyboard, mouse, and large display are still the most efficient way for me to interact with Live. Once I started thinking of the Push as just a MIDI controller (albeit a great one), it all started to make sense, and my frustrations went away. I no longer try to do everything on the Push and itās liberating.
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Iāve set it up on a stand at 30 degrees. I can now see the display and reach the controls more easily. It also takes up less space on the desk and doesnāt interfere with my computer keyboard and mouse. A simple solution that improves the ergonomics tenfold.
I am 100% ITB and everything just works. The Pushās got encoders, drum pads, scale mode, sequencer, clip launcher, a display that shows parameters and values, etc. All in one. I can finally say with confidence, after having tried lots of different options, that my search for the perfect DAW controller is over.
Big thanks to those who convinced me to give Push 2 another chance.