Hey guys. I (try to) make techno, dub techno, downtempo. Last weekend I picked up an SP-404 MKII hoping that it would help me build tracks in those genres but I quickly realized that its sampling-based workflow and drum pads encourage a different kind of vibe than what I am going for. The effects didn’t do anything for me either – most of them seem to be targeted to a different kind of sounds.
I had better results in the past with an OT (which I sold and now regret haha). The Elektron sequencer is really perfect for techno. But the OT is complex and I couldn’t finish any music with it.
So I am trying to go back to doing things in the box. It seems to be the best way for me to actually finish tracks. I am running Ableton Live and have lots of good VSTs. It’s nice to see Serum modulating parameters live on a large screen, to see the arrangement and the automation, to have access to the super powerful Sampler that blows the SP out of the water as far as versatility and precision are concerned. HOWEVER, it all feels very sterile and not tactile and it’s annoying to have to click small boxes to get anything done.
The immediacy of the SP-404 made it feel like an instrument and I am now trying to find a piece of gear that would allow me to establish that kind of connection with my DAW. And here’s where I need your help.
I will be returning the SP-404 in exchange for store credit which amounts to about 500 bucks. I am wondering what would be the best thing to get on that budget that would help me be more “in touch” with producing in the box.
MIDI keyboards are bulky and kind of suck, plastic MIDI controllers with knobs feel cheap, the AKAI APC40-MKII is huge, ROLI keyboards are prohibitively expensive, I had a Push before but it felt like it got in the way more than it helped. Am I looking for some magic piece of gear here that doesn’t exist? The closest I can think of is getting a Keystep and a Faderfox controller. Do you have other suggestions? How do you approach DAW-based production? How do you sequence in a more hands-on way? Do you send MIDI into the DAW with Elektron machines? Could my A4 be a good candidate for this? Do you use a MIDI keyboard with pads and faders? How do you make working inside the DAW more fun and expressive?
Sorry for the rant and thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions!
You could try to use a hardware midi sequencer like Squarp ones. Or even use Elektron box to sequence software.
I had beed using Squarp Pyramid for some time and it worked nice for this task.
Also, Maschine is much more tactile than Push, at least for me, but you have to use their software. It’s nice as it is, but development pace doesn’t look like promising and future proof.
Have you watched Yan Cook’s videos on YouTube? He might help you answer that question.
I’ve been able to use the Push 1 (which I think are be given away at the point) to get P-lockable type sequencing by holding down a key on it and turning parameter knobs, which is creating the automation.
Go watch Yan, see if someone is giving away a Push 1, and see how all that feels.
Do be careful though. This urge/feeling is a slippery slope. You might end up buying a bunch of shit you don’t use, and are broke, and finally realize what you needed was within and a little bit of practice and getting use to little boxes. Or Yan Cook, and Push 1.
There’s lots of options but not a silver bullet. For $500 ish:
Use push 2 but you already excluded it.
2x Xone K2 (this is more for performance than production)
A keylab mk3 (or Minilab) allows you to control all Arturia VSTs and in device mode controls selected Ableton device. Really cool if you’re into Arturia ecosystem. Leaves $300-$400 for some other device.
Faderfox PC12 or MX12 depending you want more vst/device control or mixing control.
Novation Launchkey (pick any of them to your needs) has one of the most complete integration with Ableton including device control and channel but missing VST control unless you map a few custom modes. Better option than Arturia if you’re not into Arturia ecosystem. Leaves $250-$350 for some other device.
Lots of more options out there. Just naming a few. I’m also excluding any Native Instruments with their NKS integration since their firmware updates are non-existent.
I second a Keylab. Solid all around controller with keys, pads, and assignable knobs/faders. Great integration with Arturia VSTs if you have and use them.
Why not working with Push 2? It’s IMO the best HW-controller/DAW combination. It’s highly integrated, many parameters don’t need a users-configuration, much is plug & play.
A question would be, what is your preferred workflow?
Doing it as a live-recording or doing it step by step?
Are keys needed (velocity and pressure) or pads or both?
Wiggling knobs?
Moving faders?
Swiping on a two dimensional surface?
I have never found a controller doing all of this the way I wanted it. This said, I have a small collection consisting of Keystep, Beat Step, Faderfox and for MPE Erae Touch.
If not Push, IMO a combination of a Keystep and a Faderfox could be a good solution.
Keystep for the keys and maybe the sequencer,
Faderfox (I use an UC4), because of:
knobs to wiggle and press
faders
easy to implement in a MIDI-environment (MIDI learn)
Second hand Digitakt? Much easier to grasp than OT, sounds great and integrates nicely with a DAW through Overbridge. One cable for all your audio and midi needs back and forth
I am excluding NI and Arturia (except the KeyStep (37) and, maybe, the BeatStep Pro) controllers. I don’t rely on any of their plugins so wouldn’t be missing out on integration. I’ve kind of lost trust in NI recently. As for Arturia – I am not a huge fan of their plasticky knobs and keys, and their bright blinking octave LEDs that cannot be dimmed or turned off. First-world problems, I know…
Was never interested in the Pyramid tbh, but trying to bring the Elektron sequencer to my DAW workflow is something that I would like to try. I have an A4 (mk1). Will take a look at what it can do with MIDI. If it can send sequencer data and knob data it could be a pragmatic solution. Besides, it has a small desk footprint and looks techno af
Did just that and, indeed, the Push workflow looks very good. I’d forgotten that it has a step sequencer…
Good point. I try to keep that in the back of my mind. The mouse and keyboard are just so… uninspiring. But I do forget about them when I focus on the music and not on the gear.
Yes, those controllers look great. The large ones are overkill for my needs, but the smaller ones look very fit for the purpose. The EC4 even has a display with parameter names. Could be great for controlling VSTs and it takes up almost no space at all! I’ve looked at the Xone K2 before and it sounds like a great option too. Glad to see that you put it on your list as well.
You are absolutely right. Until this thread it wasn’t clear what I was looking for, but now I realize that I am looking for some combination of pads + pots. Keys always make me focus too much on melody which, I’ve found, makes me unintentionally stray from the more minimal techno that I am aiming for. Pads on modern controllers can do chords and scales, so not having keys shouldn’t be a problem.
These are all excellent suggestions that I wasn’t aware of. The Presonus Atom SQ and the Nektar Aruba look very promising. The Aruba especially seems to tick a lot of my boxes: 16 pads, 4-page step-sequencer, display for parameter readouts, etc. It’s almost like an SP-404 for the DAW. I will definitely be taking a closer look at it! I haven’t looked at the Atom SQ yet, but will read up on it too. Do you have any experience with any of these? How is the build quality?
I don’t use Arturia plugins and don’t really like their controllers apart from the KeyStep. I didn’t mention in the original post but I do have a Novation Impulse 49 which is perfect on paper except I never take it out of the box because desk space is limited and I need to clear it often for work. That’s why I am looking for something more compact.
Not important to me.
Agreed. I am putting Push back onto my list. I’d had one before but sold it because I was too inexperienced to be able to appreciate its workflow. BTW they should call their next controller Shove
That’s what I am thinking too. Smaller footprint than the Push, good quality hardware, can be used together or separately. Kind of a modular setup.
Was thinking just that. Combined with a Faderfox this could be a smaller, albeit perhaps slightly less integrated, Push alternative.
Interesting. I need to look into Overbridge. It might even work with my A4! Although, I think I am more productive in the box, so maybe a more DAW-oriented solution would be best for my output. But who can say no to the idea of owning another Elektron box, am I right?
So many good suggestions here guys. Thank you to all of you. Things are much more clear in my mind now: I am looking for a small-footprint desk setup that includes a row/grid of pads that can be used as a step-sequencer/keys/scales/chords/drum pads, and that has knobs for controlling VST parameters (with the ability to store the MIDI mapping, preferably).
Here’s how I plan to proceed:
Explore the MIDI features of my A4 to see if I can use its sequencer and knobs to control the DAW. Take a look at the possibilities that Overbridge brings to the table. Maybe get a DT/ST?
Consider an all-in-one dedicated controller like the Push 1/2/3, Nektar Aruba, etc.
Consider a combo of pads controller + pots controller. Novation Launchpad Pro / BeatStep Pro + Faderfox / Xone K2, or a similar pairing.
Remind myself to not go overboard because like @Bourn and @jdaddyaz said, “There’s lots of options but not a silver bullet” and “realize what you needed was […] a little bit of practice and getting used to little boxes.”
One thing to keep in mind with Faderfox controllers (I have a PC12): it will take time to setup, the control surface script only enables you to control tracks sends, panning, volume, etc., so becomes a 12-track mixer, for anything else you’re going to have to MIDI map in Ableton, save setups on the Faderfox, switch setups between different VSTs (to have a specific mapping of knobs to specific synths).
Don’t overlook this aspect of setting it up because it’s quite boring to do it, takes a bit of trial-and-error.
Faderfox PC12 or something similar + generative sequencer, map the sequencer to the knobs of the faderfox, map the controlled vst aswell, that gives modular feel while everything is printable. Launchpad mini to control scenes.
If I remember correctly, old big Elektron boxes are quite limited in terms of midi sequencing.
I tried to use Digitakt like that. 8 midi tracks with up to 4 notes per track, conditional trigs, step locks for CC and other midi controls, LFO per track. And you get nice sampler which you can record by track in ableton via USB using overbridge.
My old setup was like DN + DT via overbridge to Maschine. Tactile and very flexible.
Looking at your list of criteria, I’d say that a Launchpad Pro mk3 combined with a MIDI Fighter Twister would tick a lot of your boxes.
The LPP is a seriously capable bit of kit and coupled with the MFT it can give a Push a run for its money. And the MFT is a great bit of kit, simple to set up and super fun to use. Map each rotary to a Macro control in a Live Rack (and you have 16 Macros if you’re using Live 11) and let rip.
Alternatively… yes, Push 2. Lots available used (and well within your budget I suspect) now that Push 3 is out.
The step sequencer on Push 2 is seriously good. It’s not Elektron good, but it’s very capable and can easily do Roland TR-REC style sequencing.
Downside of Push 2 (IMO) is its size (it takes a lot of space) and personally I don’t like having the rotary pots at the top of the device rather than to the side. Also I’ve found you need a sloped stand for the thing as a 15 degree tilt makes it much easier to reach the knobs. Short version is it takes up a lot of desk real estate and I’ve (personally) found the ergonomics to be quite frustrating.
One other (very different) thought… Syntakt. You’d probably need to increase your budget (although there may be some used Syntakts around).
Syntakt is an absolute beast for techno (and many other genres too) and does things effortlessly that would be seriously complicated and time-consuming in any DAW (eg p-locks can be replicated using automation of plugin synth parameters on a per-note basis, but it’s tedious as hell in practice).
Syntakt via Overbridge into Ableton Live would give you a ton of new options. Jam ideas on Syntakt using the Elektron sequencer workflow (best in the business IMO), record clips via Overbridge, add effects from Live and layer on other instruments, samples etc… lots of fun.
This is true. At the moment I am trying to use a minimal amount of tools in order to increase and improve my creative output, so I’d only have to set up a couple of VSTs and the mixer controls, so maybe in my case it wouldn’t be too tedious. It’s good to think about this, though. Once you’ve mapped the controls, are they saved to the Faderfox memory or in some kind of script file on the computer?
I used to have a Push 2 but sold it, twice. Due to its huge size and ergonomics (as also mentioned by @MuttBeats) I felt like it hindered me more than helped. I think it’s good if one wants to do things entirely on the Push and not look at the computer screen, but I don’t mind the screen. I also work primarily in arrangement view. So I hesitate to consider Push again because some part of me probably knew that it wasn’t right since I had it twice and on both occasions ended up selling it.
I can totally see its utility for performing live like in the video you linked, though. Great stuff! Admittedly, he was using the Push to trigger clips and manipulate effects on the master channel, but I am not sure if the Push would be as handy for the production phase. The guy in the video also had direct access to instrument parameters. That Mother-32 sounds sweeet
Any suggestions for a generative sequencer?
I need to test this out with my A4. I am surprised it never occurred to me to sequence DAW stuff with it. What makes the old Elektron machine sequencers limited in this regard?
Kind of don’t want to get more sound sources at the moment. Really trying to work with what I already have. I get overwhelmed easily. I have Zebra 2, Diva, Bazille, Serum, Nerve, stock Ableton plugins with the new Drift synth, A4… haha
Interesting. Why Renoise specifically? I am assuming this setup would require an iPad?
That’s what I am thinking too. Although I gravitate towards Faderfox products more than the MIDI Fighter Twister. I am also thinking that Arturia Beatstep Pro is kind of a combination of pads + sequencer + knobs. Any experience with it? It’s been a while since it was released. Are there better alternatives today?
True. Lots of examples online. But I don’t know… It’s expensive. And I already have the A4 which I prefer from what I’ve seen/heard. I also feel like I’d rather get Omnisphere and a really good MIDI controller if I wanted to cover more sonic territory.
There are so many options, it’s crazy. Here’s where I am at so far:
I am excluding Ableton Push. It’s very nice, but expensive for what it would do for me. I could get 99% there with two pieces of gear like a Faderfox and a Launchpad.
I am excluding more Elektron boxes for now. I want to focus on ITB creation vs jamming, exploring new sound sources. Plus it’s expensive - the same price as the controller version of Push 3. At this point I’d rather go for an OT. But not gonna do that haha.
How good is the Nektar Aura/Aruba? Anybody have one?
Any thoughts on the BeatStep Pro? Is it a good option today? Can’t decide between it and the Novation Launchpad Pro MK3.
The Analogs are mono only for midi and they use one or more of the audio tracks to do it. DT/DN have 4/8 simultaneous midi notes per track. Plus, they are actually separate midi tracks, leaving your audio tracks to use as you wish.
Even better. Use Renoise and loopMidi to sequence Ableton. If sequencing is a hurdle, then there’s no sequencer that I’ve interacted that feels quicker than Renoise’s.
If you have M4L there’s even a free patch that gives you the ability to open files(for instance, a Renoise program).
I’ve been meaning to set up a template for this exact thing.
(Sorry if this isn’t precisely on topic, I’m just waking up)
