Mystics: 432 Hz vs 528 Hz vs 440 Hz

ok, I know this topic pisses some people off. If this is you, kindly ignore it :slight_smile:

For those of an open-minded mystical inclination- if you’ve experimented with tuning your instruments to 528 hz and 432 hz, which do you prefer, and why? I lean toward 432 personally, but my Nord only tunes in cents, and it can get closer to 528 than 432…

However, I’m still deciding on all of this, so just wanted to hear from those who’ve explored this, and their thinking and experiences.

Sorry, No chance ! :rage: :alien: :rage:
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Science FTW :+1:
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ps - you can’t drop in ‘open minded’ as a catchall for people that ignore science and imply that those that embrace it are closed-minded - not cool, nor scientific & generally incorrect !
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as you were :wink:

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Sorry, No chance ! :rage: :alien: :rage:
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Science FTW :+1:
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ps - you can’t drop in ‘open minded’ as a catchall for people that ignore science and imply that those that embrace it are closed-minded - not cool, nor scientific & generally incorrect !
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as you were :wink: …[/quote]
Nice, I haven’t read this article before; thanks. Hopefully it’ll lead to a reacessment of some sorts. Isn’t it awesome when that happens?

Sorry, No chance ! :rage: :alien: :rage:
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Science FTW :+1:
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ps - you can’t drop in ‘open minded’ as a catchall for people that ignore science and imply that those that embrace it are closed-minded - not cool, nor scientific & generally incorrect !
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as you were :wink: …[/quote]
That was a cool read; I knew nothing about this “movement,” but I appreciate 440 more after reading this. (Not that I had exactly questioned 440, but still… it was a well-written and in-depth critical examination of pseudoscientific concepts, which I always enjoy reading.)

Cool. The key thing is nobody’s knocking anyone for saying they prefer the sound of 432 over 440 - that’s fine. What is being challenged is the notion that there are mystical/universal/earthly truths and conspiracy theories and phony tests. That article barely touches on some of the most fanciful claims and connections - … - but the one which gets me boiling (for its ignorance and/or cynical manipulation) is the patterns on a plate YouTube videos which show something pretty to the easily led but simple plate response to an engineer - there are lots of parameters which will vary the way a particular plate will vary, including density/thickness/shape/thickness/size/support/temperature etc - it is extremely easy to vary these and get plates which vibrate at different frequencies … so to present one unique plate and claim it shows a universal truth is just very silly and/or very manipulative
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So, anyone re-tuning existing recorded music to 432 are spoiling it imho, even though they may like to believe they prefer it for X reason, but it makes no sense to choose 432 as opposed to 433 or 431. It’s the bad pseudoscience behind the specifics of selecting 432 which get me riled. It’s fine to prefer it, but please be aware that it is subjective - not universal !
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As for 432 being a ‘healing’ force … no, let’s not go there … I will get thrown off this forum if I get into a discussion about homeopathy or the creation-myth for that matter ! It’s fine to have beliefs, but it’s important to know you’re being fleeced, and accept that, and for these matters to be separate from state/healthcare - which sadly it isn’t in even the most enlightened nations. Pseudoscience is dangerous, makes bad people rich. Scientology anyone !! (awful f**king name)
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Some people will never understand … link … I was dreading this thread could have gone that way. That man needs to sit down and watch Sagan’s Cosmos.
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Peace :slight_smile:

4 Likes

Cool. The key thing is nobody’s knocking anyone for saying they prefer the sound of 432 over 440 - that’s fine. What is being challenged is the notion that there are mystical/universal/earthly truths and conspiracy theories and phony tests. That article barely touches on some of the most fanciful claims and connections - … - but the one which gets me boiling (for its ignorance and/or cynical manipulation) is the patterns on a plate YouTube videos which show something pretty to the easily led but simple plate response to an engineer - there are lots of parameters which will vary the way a particular plate will vary, including density/thickness/shape/thickness/size/support/temperature etc - it is extremely easy to vary these and get plates which vibrate at different frequencies … so to present one unique plate and claim it shows a universal truth is just very silly and/or very manipulative
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So, anyone re-tuning existing recorded music to 432 are spoiling it imho, even though they may like to believe they prefer it for X reason, but it makes no sense to choose 432 as opposed to 433 or 431. It’s the bad pseudoscience behind the specifics of selecting 432 which get me riled. It’s fine to prefer it, but please be aware that it is subjective - not universal !
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As for 432 being a ‘healing’ force … no, let’s not go there … I will get thrown off this forum if I get into a discussion about homeopathy or the creation-myth for that matter ! It’s fine to have beliefs, but it’s important to know you’re being fleeced, and accept that, and for these matters to be separate from state/healthcare - which sadly it isn’t in even the most enlightened nations. Pseudoscience is dangerous, makes bad people rich. Scientology anyone !! (awful f**king name)
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Some people will never understand … link … I was dreading this thread could have gone that way. That man needs to sit down and watch Sagan’s Cosmos.
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Peace :slight_smile:
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Oh yeah, I too have seen these threads, of course. I should have been more specific- I’m curious about peoples’ subjective experience regarding the use of these tunings with musical instruments. I’m not looking to debate the validity of various random claims. And yes, the cymatic patterns would totally seem to be dictated by the shape of the resonating object itself, to name just one objection I have to many of these claims, fwiw.

To clarify the statement about open-mindedness- that was directed against the knee-jerk Scientism “skeptic” fanaticists- those who automatically dismiss any possibility that humanity may not currently be at the pinnacle of knowledge at this moment in history. The same people who would never dare to even experiment with tuning their instruments up or down slightly to see if they might prefer it better for whatever reason, because oooooh, tinfoil woo woo; wikipedia/Bill Nye/Neal Degrasse Tyson/Snopes/etc says otherwise. This is a bit straw man-ish, but I’m sure you get my point.

Yes, I’m an unabashed, discering, discriminating conspiracy theory enthusiast and avid devourer of mystical, occult, and even new age literature, despite it being rife with ill informed views and downright disinformation- this only makes it more of an interesting challenge, for me at least. I firmly perceive there to be great value to humanity in these maligned fields of inquiry, and I don’t consider all of it to be equal by any means. Evaluating these things does indeed require a degree of open-mindedness and mental experimentation. Without this mindset, one is left with an over-reliance on those who are all too happy to tell the population what and how to think. Yes, many of these people no doubt have good intentions, but even a cursory reading of the most mainstream, non-controversial versions of history will illustrate in gory detail that this isn’t always the case.

Heck, even mainstream conspiracy theory speculation is itself largely a disempowering, agency-robbing narrative, among other things…

Ok, rant-mode off :slight_smile:

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As for 432 being a ‘healing’ force … no, let’s not go there … I will get thrown off this forum if I get into a discussion about homeopathy or the creation-myth for that matter ! It’s fine to have beliefs, but it’s important to know you’re being fleeced, and accept that, and for these matters to be separate from state/healthcare - which sadly it isn’t in even the most enlightened nations. Pseudoscience is dangerous, makes bad people rich. Scientology anyone !! (awful f**king name)
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I agree about sceintology ( as for any religion ) - but to trow everyting in thesame bucket - like homeopathy - man , I was sick between my 1 and 6 years - been in several hospitals - only to be cured by homeopathy in the end . I was much to Young to believe . but it worked. Modern medecine is wonderfoul but limited too. In Nepal and India monks cure people by sound, don’t underestimate the influence of vibrations on your body.
To say homeopathy is just a matter of believing is not knowing what you’re talking about. there’s alot of faking so-called healers out-there - but there’s also some who are ahead of these times - they are laughed with today. A friend of mine ones went to my Homeophate because he had an skin - irritation that wouldn’t go away after visiting several docters and trying different medecinesfor months. When he came back I asked him what the docter gave him for medecine. He laughed saying he gave him nothing - they just had a good conversation and that the irritation was the result of a conflict with his sister. The docter told him it would go away as my friend became consious of the origin of his problem,. 2 weeks later - no more irritation and without any medecine … not one " scientific " docter saw the problem - but they gave hime several " médecines " that didn’t help.
On the other hand it has been proved that poeple will have a bigger chance to cure if they believe they will. this has been seriously tested in modern hospitals.
I personally know 2 docters who have studied and practice modern medecine and who have incorporated homeopathy to extend their possebilities to help curing people. for them there is no conflict between the 2 methodes - both have good sides. And it’s a serious study that takes many years to know. It’s illegal to practice Homeopathy in Belgium if you are not a classic Docter.
Momeopathy is no pseudo - science. But feel free to believe what you want :wink:

what the mind does and what homeopathy does are clinically proven to be two different things - science tells us that - it is one thing to use something and feel better, it is another to claim it made you feel better - anyway, this is a music forum, but homeopathy is an industry that makes money out of water and hopes
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there’s likely no benefit in expressing our differing opinions about it - but science is a worldwide force for truth and the premise for homeopathy is utterly ridiculous - it’s been shown to be just like a placebo - if there is any evidence then it will be scientifically verifiable, which it hasn’t been
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homeopathy services are being withdrawn all around the world because it is proven to do absolutely nothing - anyway, if and when, and ONLY when, the science changes, i’ll change, but that’s just as likely they’ll find evidence of ghosts - it’s that simple for me, sorry to be blunt, it’s not even harmless, it’s potentially dangerous when used to ‘cure’ life-threatening conditions.
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let’s agree to disagree, I choose to agree with the scientific method
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I really shouldn’t have mentioned that word, i’ll say no more about it !
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recent report here

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OP, if your still interested. Here is an article actually written about 432 tuning. The whole 432ruther tone to the above article I personally found to be a huge turn off.

http://www.roelhollander.eu/en/432-tuning/concert-pitch-vs-tuning-system/

Science in music?

I thought we are creating art here. Not building load bearing structures, or bridges. So what does science have to do with it.

I tune to 432. But only because it sounds different. Not trying to “heal” anyone with my tunes.

Tune to what tickles your ear. Whatever that may be.

I like you being blunt, have no problem with that :joy:
But it has not been prooved that homeaphaty dousn’t work, the only thing they did was not finding an scientific explenation why it works.
If it would be a question of placebo or believe - it wouldn’t work for small children or like me at the time. I had constant infections of my ears for years. After countless doses of atibiotics and other stuff my mother paniked when docters said the only solution was ro implant tubes in my ears wich in consequence would have damaged my hearing for the rest of my life - bye -buye music ! When I was six I met the fisrt docter who advised me to drink less milk , walk every day tru the garden on bear feet and he gave me 2 doses of medicine. I never had any infections again so my opinion is based on facts and personal experience. I’m 50 now end the only times I took any modern medicine sinds than was when being in hospital or at the dentist. It’s to difficult to explain here how it works and I don’t want to convince anyone.
Every medicine is dangerous when not applied correctly - this happens alot in modern medicine at enormous fysical and financial costs. even today people are given antybiotics for no more reasen than to sell it. By docters who should know they should only give that in critical situations.
as result allmost all bacterys became resistant.
Not evrything that can’t be explained scientificcaly is bullshit.
Music can make people happy, sad, aggressive etc… there’s no scientifical explenation for that - no proof but exprience. You could asswell say that that’s impossible because there’s no way to pindown and measure or proof an emotion - to measure or define music and the effects it has on emotions and the body nor to prrof the difference between music and just a sound or noice - scientifficaly music is only vibrations of matter - no more. If you are correct there would exist no such thing as music but only vibrations.
I am a very sceptical person and make my own conclusions, that’s why I have no religion.
Let’s agree to disagree > thank you for your honoust opinion, you mentioned it - I have no problem whit that, as long as you can stand the reactions.
Science in Duch is " Wetenschap " > in there is the word knowing > that’s what I like as you mention it’s the search for truth. Wich it should be. So when I see poeple with AD-AD being treated with a amfetamine - variant. Depressed people given drugs that push some to suecide or apathy, antybiotics given for no reason but commerce, where’s the science in that.??? And that’ costs us 1000 x more that Homeopathy ( wich is very, very cheap )
Now because some docters and farmaceutic industries don’t handle by truth - That won’t make me say every docter is lier. Nor that every medicine is a lie or badly prescripted.
And how to explain LOVE scientifficaly ? Some have the balls to say that are only chemical processes.
When man made the first machines he said man was a machine.
Now we are compared to computers.
We have the habit to explain things the way we are technically evelved.
For our westenr culture ( who we believe to be surperior :confused: ) the universe is a matter of coincidence. and being sick is just a matter of bad-luck and external factors. In some Chinese and Buddist cultures the first question is allways - what has this sickness to offer your spirit to evolve ? They look at it as something positive wich is really hard to understand for us. And because we don’t understand whe can call it bullshit and whe could use science to try to proove that. It’s good to be sceptical - it’s stupid to believe every so called " truth " because some people who claim to be scientists ( claiming to say only the truth ) say so. Why ? Because they studied - or because they weare a white jacket ? There’s enough of them who will sell us their stuff and use us at thesame time as laboraty - rabbits. In the name of science :angry: In thesame way that some misuse or fake alternative healing - methodes. :angry:
Just like priests who send soldiers to war in the name of God.
Science is wonderfoul if tells only the truth and hass the honesty to say " I don’t know " when it dousn’t. It’s no science at all when saynig " if I can’t proof it it dousn’t exist "
We handle things the way we see and define them. When we look at Earth as a dead object ( wich it scientifficaly is ) we will treat it that way with all terrible cosequences. If we see it as a living being we will treat it accordingly. We use monkeys in laboratries with the excuse that they don’t suffer like we do . We manipulate plants and animals as if they are only objects - witout any insight in the consequences on long - term-in the name of science, as we did some time ago in the name of one or another God. So as you can see , believing can leed to terribler acts, it dousn’t matter if it’s in God or in Science.
Is your opinion based on self-research or at least some reading and study or are ou only repeating the words of other "scientists " about homeopathy ?
Judging all science the same way would do it great injustice … as it would to Judge all other form of healing in thesame way.
And don’t forget - there’s really not much money to be made in homeopethy - it’s to cheap for that.
hanx again for your opinion - no hard feelings - CIAO :wink:

^ this :wink:
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Science isn’t perfect, it’s open to manipulation, greed and fraud; it’s still the best tool for understanding and saving our species/world, but there’s a long long way to go to understand many many aspects. Science is open to correction, and even the greatest scientific minds can be wrong. I won’t repeat myself nor question your experience, but will bow out politely so the discussion can get back to numbers, which i love :slight_smile:
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Fwiw, re previous post; i created a wavetable synth (proper use of term, scannable like ppg) with a touch interface many years ago and explored the just intonation (iirc) and i thought it sounded terrific, somehow more plaintive and satisfying - my issue with some of the discussion around alternative tunings is that it goes into the realms of fantasy - plus you’re confusing science with civil engineering :wink: conducting science and using scientific knowledge are two different things
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Anyway, on a pragmatic level, it must be a chore tuning to a different reference for the purpose of integrating with others or untunable gear !

i love tuning instruments. really, i´ve alwas been fascinated to get the tuning “right”
i had a great guitar teacher in my teenage years, i learned many things to consider when
tuning a guitar. since then i´ve tuned guitars, dulcimers, pianos, flutes, all kinds of drums and percussion, analog synths, samplers… , i played in quite a few bands and tuned my instrument to those of my band-mates many times.
not every instrument works mathematically perfect.
there are so many mistakes in instruments, very often its even impossible to tune them
perfectly right. random samples are totally “off” tuning pretty much always.
i get healing power when different frequencies sound nice together. they do not necesserily have to be perfectly tuned mathematically. listen to nature, animals, elements, everything. no one gives a shit about numbers like 440, 432, 528,… invented by humans

^this

well, elements give a shit about numbers, that’s the deal with them !
and numbers are also a big deal in the natural world, take e.g. the cicada, if it didn’t care about the difference between 12/13/14 or 16/17/18 summers before emerging it’d be toast as a species - but by evolving to exploit primes it keeps its would-be prey at bay
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there’s a big difference between numbers and numerology, but numbers in many different ways are a big deal in nature and for humans, but not always for important reasons ! - the thing about 440, whether we like it or not is that it’s a broadly compatible standard, but I like the music of Harry Partch, Glenn Branca or of Asia (not the band) as much as the next man - just not into pseudoscience encroaching into art/anything

^ this :wink:
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Science isn’t perfect, it’s open to manipulation, greed and fraud; it’s still the best tool for understanding and saving our species/world, but there’s a long long way to go to understand many many aspects. Science is open to correction, and even the greatest scientific minds can be wrong. I won’t repeat myself nor question your experience, but will bow out politely so the discussion can get back to numbers, which i love :slight_smile:
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Fwiw, re previous post; i created a wavetable synth (proper use of term, scannable like ppg) with a touch interface many years ago and explored the just intonation (iirc) and i thought it sounded terrific, somehow more plaintive and satisfying - my issue with some of the discussion around alternative tunings is that it goes into the realms of fantasy - plus you’re confusing science with civil engineering :wink: conducting science and using scientific knowledge are two different things
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Anyway, on a pragmatic level, it must be a chore tuning to a different reference for the purpose of integrating with others or untunable gear ! [/quote]
:+1: :wink:

:+1: : scientist shows how science should (and usually does) work > - not all scientists and science are protecting the general good, that’s why science evolves, unlike religion - always open for verifiable change (except where self interest ( or $ ) gets in the way)

[quote="“avantronica”"]

:+1: : scientist shows how science should (and usually does) work > - not all scientists and science are protecting the general good, that’s why science evolves, unlike religion - always open for verifiable change (except where self interest ( or $ ) gets in the way) [/quote]
Thanx for this - no time now - but for shure gonna wach this :+1:
Sheldrake is fantastic - iv’e read a book about his research

The 440hz A tuning was a standard decided upon by several european governments in the 1940’s.
If you don’t mind letting those people who are probably all dead by now decide how you tune your music then that’s up to you, me personally I like to decide that for myself seeing as it’s my music and not some dead suit.

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1+1=2, 2+2=4, 4+4=8, 8+8=16 >(1+6=7**), 16+16=32 >(3+2=5**), 32+32=64 >(6+4=10>1+0=1), 64+64=128 >(1+2+8=11>1+10=2) 128+128=256 >(2+5+6=13>1+3=4) etc. —

**7+7=14 >(1+4=5), **5+5=10 >(1+0=1!)

Which means the pattern is 1-2-4-8-7-5 repeating itself.

None lead to 3, 6 or 9.
3, 6 and 9 are beyond this pattern, this system.


3+3=6, 6+6=12 >(1+2=3), 12+12=24 >(2+4=6), 24+24=48 >(4+8=12>1+2=3), 48+48=96 >(9+6=15>1+5=6), 96+96=192 >(1+9+2=12>1+2=3), 192+192=384 >(3+8+4=15>1+5=6), 384+384=768 >(7+6+8=21>2+1=3), etc. etc. —

Which means the pattern is 6-3-6-3-6-3-6-3-repeat.

All are either 3 or 6. None lead to 9!
9 seems to be beyond this pattern, this system. Hmm…


9+9=18 >(1+8=9), 18+18=36 >(3+6=9), 36+36=72 >(7+2=9),
72+72=144 >(1+4+4=9), 144+144=288 >(2+8+8=18>1+8=9) etc. etc. !! —

The pattern is ONLY 9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-repeat.

9 is a pattern of it’s own, beyond all the others. (!)

…INTERESTING in itself - so what does this have to do with 432 and music?

If we start a Fibonacci sequence with 3-6-9 (in other words, a series where a number is found by adding up the two before it):

3, 6, 9, 15, 24, 39, 63, 102, 165, 267, 432 <— is what it leads up to, which means, 432Hz is one frequency to tune the reference pitch of A to that is connected and harmonic to the system of 3-6-9.

Also, of course, 4+3+2= 9 :slight_smile:

https://youtu.be/LOJ50EUbWzg?t=2m33s

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