But as Kotare said, if they did add it, would you then consider it “imperfect design”?
*HA HA HA …
As I said, the Machinedrum initially was sold without external midi sequencing and this was added with an os update - why not do the same for the Analog?
*IT HAD A "INTERNAL "MIDI -SEQUENCER
It’s not strange, it just doesn’t work as external midi sequencing has been added to Elektron machines before without somehow sullying them so why not again?
*I HOPE IT WORKS FOR YOU
As I said, why not just make it as good as the Monomachine or Ot midi sequencers? I’m sure most people would be happy with that don’t you think?
*SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO ADD A MIDI -SEQ - as it’s not inside
External midi sequencing can be added to the Analog by an os update. All of the examples you give above would need hardware changes. The Analog already has the hardware in place to do external midi sequencing.
*WHAT MAKES U SO SHURE OF THAT ? just an updeta hey ?
Please Elektron, throw a bone to us hardware only users and add external midi sequencing to the Keys/A4 when you roll out the new os to use with Overbridge.
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*BUT in the end I hope I’m wrong and you’re right as I prefer everybody to be happy.
I don’t see it happening do… but who knows
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I don’t think you understand. Midi, is just a protocol that can be used for machine’s to ‘talk’ to each other. Elektron don’t need to “add an internal midi sequencer” to the Analog, just program it to send midi data from it’s sequencer. It already partly does this as it can send midi PC and clock, both of which I use. They just need to add the ability for the sequencer to also send midi note/cc. As I keep saying, I think it is possible for Elektron to add this feature with an os update as they’ve done it before with the Machinedrum.
I’m quietly confident that Elektron will add external midi sequencing (in basic form to start with maybe) with the next major os update along with some other new features. Overbridge will be great I’m sure for the percentage (majority?) of Keys/A4 users that also use them with a computer/DAW but I’m sure that Elektron won’t forget about their hardware only users.
I like how the Tempest was mentioned as an analogue piece of gear with midi sequencing - it’s barely something to shout about and is quite crippled (I love my Tempest regardless by the way).
The Tempest is a cracking example of the struggles of developing high featured analogue gear in a modern “digital” world. It’s taken years to get some of the features added to the Tempest and comparably, Elektron are a smaller outfit to DSI.
I’m no Elektron “rose tinted spec wearing” fan boy but I don’t necessarily think it’s some ploy to make you spend more money on their other gear. I think it’s a simple case of using resources as best they can - some things will naturally become an opportunity cost. Teh A4 was inititall a 4 mono voiced analogue synth with FX and internal sequencer. They delivered this and we had no complaints.
Subsequent development has really opened up the machine and has naturally led many to ask “why no midi sequencer” but this has never been promised. It probably is achievabe but they’d never put something half baked into the machine and nor should we expect them to. Again, look at the issues DSI have had with the Tempest. Also, how to manage midi sequencing? Would each track have its own midi channel? How many notes per track?
It’d be a nice thing to have but like OB is to the OT, MIDI in any of the analgoue gear doesn’t really fit in with the ethos of the units in my opinion.
There may be a connection between the Elektron devices that don’t send midi notes ARE the ones that can be used with OB.
Perhaps Elektron’s proprietary ‘sync’ capabilities are in conflict with midi notes in some weird way. Of course that’s pure speculation on my part.
BUT
I find it odd that all their devices leading up to the A4, could send midi notes. Then beyond that they didn’t. However, the new devices presented us with the opportunity for OB.
I’d personally prefer to have (in A4) midi-sequencer or/and independent tracks length (tempo multiplier) like in Octatrack or even external sequencer box from elektron rather than Overbridge (for sure it’s a very nice feature, but first of all we prefer elektron gear for its concept: take one(2,3,4…) box with you and play live without computer).
IMHO sequencer is the key feature of every elektron device. There are huge amount of external synths, modules that sound really better than elektrons, and many of them have sound over USB functionaluty but they all lack of so cool sequencer and integrity. I’d develop sequencer first as it is an real instrument, Overbridge is just things from PC domain that probably will help to someone to perform multitrack recording. As I don’t use PC for music production, OB is really useless for me.
Sorry for off top.
P.S. And yes, midi sequencer is already implemented in OT, MNM, MD – just take source code of it and reuse in A4. It is not needed to create it from scratch, just adopt existing code for A4’s hardware.
The main issue is that the sequencer on the Four, Rytm and Keys is in a completely different “language” than MIDI. Whether is it difficult or not to implement MIDI, I don’t know, but I do know that it would be very time consuming. We can’t simply re-use old code since the machines are completely different.
However, we are well aware that basically everyone want this feature.
Well, if “basically everyone” wants external midi sequencing, how about putting Overbridge development on hold until it’s implemented? I’m sure everyone would be ok with that wouldn’t they and wouldn’t mind OB being delayed a bit more…?
I bought one of the first A4s and I can assure you that there were many complaints about MIDI implementation among the first batch.
This stemmed from the fact that Elektron advertised it’s MIDI capabilities in a very ambiguous way. It’s capabilities were actually advertised by them in a slightly disingenuous way, using marketing speak to twist words around a little bit, and this misled many people.
I sold mine six months after getting it, for financial reasons. I own a Keys now - it’s very nice.
If you don’t think that reducing certain critical features to encourage customers to buy a larger collection of Elektron instruments is not a direct marketing method then we will have to disagree. At the very least, it would be a recognized positive “spin off”, and the benefits of it would most definitely not have gone unnoticed in the development stage as you are working out what to include and to not include in your new instruments.
You seem to give companies a lot of leeway but I assure you that everything comes down to the bottom line with every company. All commercial decisions come down to the bottom line which is profit and if you can encourage a positive spin off in sales through crippling certain features then you will take clear advantage of that. I work in marketing departments for a living and I assure you that this is the case near universally.
You work out what you can NOT give people, while still walking away with the cash, and you have a gauge in mind as to what you DON’T need to provide and you work towards that margin (while still remaining a company who make kick ass instruments at a boutique price, in this case.)
By the way, the capabilities of the A4 were not unlocked over time spent in further research and discovery. Polyphony was always planned for the A4, just as Overbridge was, and I assure you that MIDI SEQ out is planned for these machines also, even if in a simple manner. At the very least I’d say MIDI SEQ out would have been an option to keep in mind for later down the track…
If not, what a waste of a bloody nice MIDI out port…
What really happened with the post-release development of the A4 is another brilliant Elektron marketing ploy, where they release unfinished instruments with latent but incomplete capabilities inside the machine, sell large batches, and then finish the machine off in their spare time. But hey, if people buy beta machines (like I do) then that is what you do. You spread your R&D over a period of time, which is critical for a small company like this. Like I said earlier, you work out what you DON’T have to provide your customers and Elektron totally gets away with this one.
I’d assure you that, in Elektron’s case, their marketing budget would have increased exponentially compared to the R&D or customer services departments over the past two years. That is always a dangerous time for any company, because it is in that period where resources are taken out of development and customer support to market a larger profile in the lure of bumping yourself up into the next tier of commercial success. In these times your standards that have propelled you to your stations of success, and which have largely informed your brand, are in most danger of slipping. Customers buy into brands, branding develops loyalty (zealousness in Elektrons case, to be honest), and if your brand is a certain standard of continual upgrades which you advertise loudly at every point of sale then you have to work hard to maintain that, and if you don’t then you are essentially rebranding yourself.
I love Elektron machines, but I am not under any illusions that this is anything but a commercial enterprise, the choices of which are determined massively by bottom line profit. It may have been different a few years back when it was a few guys tinkering in a garage, and that is a great back story to sell to generate empathy in your customers (who by and large tend to be on the more “misunderstood” spectrum of electronic music makers), but it is most certainly not that anymore.
The reason why I am writing this (I never expected to write this much on this post!) is because if the capabilities for MIDI SEQ out are in place, then customer noise DOES make a difference. Companies DO listen, even if disgruntled customers get the short shrift by zealous forum posters…
Before the typical anally retentive hacks leap up and down here, I must say that I really appreciate Elektron - their innovation has provided me with countless days and years of a tactile and intuitive approach to releasing totally kick ass quality electronic sounds - and I am in no hurry to stop using my Keys just because it doesn’t have MIDI SEQ out.
But it’s a fucking pain in the ass, is what it is, as it means that the Keys can never be the hub in my studio set up, as I use much MIDI and little CV/gate.
And that is unfortunate, as it is a dream to play and would make a very intuitive hardware creation hub for music, which is really what Elektron is all about.
I’d be ok, but if OB is near the release – let it be released.
But after the release, I hope, guys from elektron will return to the OS’s updates/improvements.
Well, if “basically everyone” wants external midi sequencing, how about putting Overbridge development on hold until it’s implemented? I’m sure everyone would be ok with that wouldn’t they and wouldn’t mind OB being delayed a bit more…?
[/quote]
I wouldn’t mind for sure, I’d take a sequencer over software integration any time…
I was curious about what you wrote here. I agree that it’s clear, in retrospect, that polyphony and Overbridge were planned developments for the Analog Four. On what basis can you “assure” people that MIDI sequencing is planned for the AF? Do you have inside information or are you just speculating?
I just used Tempest as an example but there are many more analog synths whose digital sequencers do external midi sequencing: Evolver (in a basic fashion), FR Revolution, 777, Timbre Wolf etc.
Why? I would have thought external midi sequencing is exactly what the Keys/A4 needs to add different (digital/sampled) audio textures not possible by the device itself? Cv/gate sequencing means more likely to just add more analog sounds unless you use something like a Eurorack with a digital oscilator and even then that’s only monophonic. Imagine being able to layer a Waldorf XT with the Analog (poly) using it’s sequencer - would be lush.
I was curious about what you wrote here. I agree that it’s clear, in retrospect, that polyphony and Overbridge were planned developments for the Analog Four. On what basis can you “assure” people that MIDI sequencing is planned for the AF? Do you have inside information or are you just speculating?[/quote]
You’ve misquoted me by not posting up the entire paragraph. What I said was that at the very least it would have been designed so that further down the track the capacity was there to develop an integrated MIDI SEQ out.
But to answer you, why build in the capacity of MIDI SEQ out (a default standard in sequenced boxes like this $1000 cheaper, lets be honest) if you are not keeping the option open as to integrating it fully further down the line?
Why go to all the trouble of initializing MIDI note and CC information and installing the out port, just to be used for program changes and note+CC while disengaging the analog engines?
It makes no sense, it’s a bad look. Would have been far more elegant to add MIDI in and through function and leave it at that if you weren’t planning to utilize the out via SEQ.
I have some MIDI gear, and not being able to drive it with my expensive, 1.5K€ Analog Keys is a HUGE disappointment. This, and the lack of SubOsc volume level are the two greatest miss of this synth, imho.
Elektron’s modus operandi has for years been to release a device and then add and improve features for it with regular os updates hasn’t it? So you buy an Elektron machine aware and accepting of what it does when you get it but with half an eye on the likely improvements it’s going to get in the future, yes?
So surely you can see how some Analog owners might be “disappointed” that external midi sequencing hasn’t yet been added to it despite it being possible and really useful and Elektron being fully aware that “everyone wants it”?
I was curious about what you wrote here. I agree that it’s clear, in retrospect, that polyphony and Overbridge were planned developments for the Analog Four. On what basis can you “assure” people that MIDI sequencing is planned for the AF? Do you have inside information or are you just speculating?[/quote]
You know the old saying, when you “assure” you make an ass of u…?
Or something like that-
I’m laughing at the users who are just positive they know the inner workings and programming decisions that Elektron made.
opinions and assurances are interchangeable with expectation and hopes here it seems - and tbh cynicism is one of the most fatiguing things you can read online
.
further to simon’s clarifications which should calm y’all down a bit: you can’t just keep throwing data out on a line that can easily be saturated with a lot of midi data already, remember, the A4/K (and some of AR) are working with 14bit data and a shitload of parameters too, adding to that may note be a great plan for timing etc, not to mention the fact that the A4/K/R are the first to use such small screens, it might just be a pita to make that work the way it does on say the OT as they probably wouldn’t want to do it half-baked - it’s also a bit naive to think they’re not entitled to make their products have USP so they can survive/thrive
.
an option would be a bonus for sure but there’s no point in getting worked up about such a first-world problem - it’s not happening anytime soon
.
i wish they’d put a clock divider on the sync-24 out, a few would appreciate that, it could happen very easily, but i don’t get worked up about it because it ain’t gonna make any difference or do me any good; reading all the pointless commentary about folk having kittens about OB not being out is in the same boat afaic
.
having said all that, the fact that the OT spiel no longer makes a fuss about pickup machines is something which unsettles me wrt user expectation and marketing transparency - it was a factor in my selection, prior to the info being pulled
