Live setup + Gain issues

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Hi there,

Firstly i’ll describe my live setup for a moment. I’m having some gain issues, so describing the path will be necessary.

I have Ableton as a main source of audio playback and sound design with a Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD connected, sending selected audio from a send to an Axoloti, which then goes into CD in the OT. Here it’s going through a flex machine with 3 neighbour tracks. I have a cue output going into a Boss Dynamic Wah -> H9 -> TC Electronic Brainwaves, coming into AB, into a thru machine. I also have one flex machine resampling the CD input with it’s dedicated neighbour and T8 is the master track.
Every track is filled with fx ranging from delay to chorus to flanger to filters. Some of them locked to scenes to create live FX. The main output of the OT is then routed into the UMC404, being received by Ableton. The inputs on the UMC are at 10’o clock, set to line, with a PAD on. This setting is based on having used the OT as an audio mangler for +/- 2 weeks now and gives me no clipping.

Today I tried to figure out the gain staging by sending a well mastered -1dB track on my laptop, through the axoloti in the OT, the inputs on the axoloti straight mapped to the output to get an even playback.

CD is gained +40 in the mixer which gives it an okay volume, still nothing compared to the OG limited version. When pushing the gain to +63 i feel like it introduces alot of distortion, although the AED window shows the waveform nicely filling up the screen as it should with a mastered track. The track being send by Ableton registers at -1.22 when the incoming signal is registered at -10.6.
So, the distortion here is the first problem.

On the master track i have an EQ in fx slot 1 and a compressor in FX slot 2. When activating the scene, it pushes both the EQ gains to +64, reduces the attack and release of the compressor to minimum, ratio to max, TH to 50 and gain to 73. This setting is developed more in following scenes with fx being modulated ETC… This extreme setting allows me to be creative with live sound design.
The problem with this is that, when sliding into this scene, the volume change is at times too unpleasant and unusable. I know this last statement is obvious, but when monitoring fully mastered track, the volume change wouldn’t have to be this great, right?

Having explained all of this, my point is that i’ve noticed that the OT is able to produce higher volumes by pushing FX to the max eg. the filter resonance, the chorus feedback and delay, the flanger and phaser feedback, etc… then by normal monitoring.

I read some thing about the OT coloring the sound only by having FX on a track, not even activated. Is this why it introduces distortion when trying to monitor a track at normal playback? Is it because of the axoloti? I doubt it because it’s basically doing nothing.

I’m having some other minor issues but i’ll save them for another topic.

Does anyone have any idea? If i’ve failed at being comprehensive, i’ll happily try again. I just would love to figure this thing out this week, since I’m playing a live show.

Kind regards!!!

OT Gain Staging
#2

I know this isn’t your typical forum post, but boy am I going to have an emo-eat moment when this one falls into a black hole.

#3

Tonight I will dumb the whole process down and try it with just 1 track and no axoloti.

#4

…hmmm…i must admit, i did’nt read close and all through…

what’s obvious right away…u’ll need to learn more basics about proper gainstaging…

first rule…keep signal chaining as simple as possible…
and always level properly already at the source beginning of each signal…turning gains down in the end is always better, than gaining up at the end…
be aware that the ot might be all u need in a live set up… i really don’t see any point in using an ot AND a computer…
also be aware that proper gainstaging within the ot makes a huge difference…
what do u need this behringer thing for exactly…???

a rnc compressor/limiter end of all ur signal messing around can help u out…for a reasonable price…

but seriously…try to focus on ot and one synth ONLY…do proper preparation for live and then go for it…no need for ableton AND ot…there’s a good reason for ot’s master channel…put there a compressor and twiddle the gain here can blast ur sum anywhere…

#5

Thanks for the reply!

I have to admit this post could’ve easily been much easier. Like i said, tonight i will dumb the whole process down to a basic gainstaging excercise and document that.

Ableton is being used to generate sound via Clyphx Pro. Something just not possible with the OT. The behringer is the soundcard, sending and receiving sound.

#6

…consider what u could do to slim down…

the sounds u creat in ur daw can be taped and transfered to ot easily…

start thinking in stems…little pre mix recordings that u can chain up for later ot usage…

really no need to take ableton and some super semi interface with u to shine and rock in a live situation…with proper loudness…

#7

on your primary difficulty:

“AED window shows the waveform nicely filling up the screen as it should with a mastered track”

maybe, but a “mastered track” is one that no more processing will be required…and this does not tell you anything about the RMS, or the perceived loudness- just that it has hit the 0db ceiling.
My point here is sound sourced from your Ableton/ the end result is only going to be as quality as the sounds you are using. In this case, Quality does not equal having a mastered effect, but “having retained integrity of the primary unprocessed recording”.
And I would not rely too much on the OT for “proper” gainstaging, it will make things louder but does not really add amp to the overall flavor.
“Gain” suggests a pulling upon an input signal, that there is proper voltage/amps behind to do so without risk of clipping. Eventually distortion ensues in your case, you have run out of dynamics and headroom.
If you were intentional on creating noise, this might not be a problem. But to maintain signal integrity, sometimes a few things in the chain introduce compromises and IMO as compared to working with “finished” compressed material through the various stages of processing, using the more raw, dynamic and uncompressed file is of advantage simply because you are giving the converters and such more room to work within down the line.
More room= the ability to introduce more gain.

#8

If this is for live shows, gigs, then my advice would be ditch some gear. Just use the octatrack and a synth if you must. Will make life one heck of a lot easier.

The key to gain staging is understanding that everything fills up a finite space, pack it too full, and all you get is a horrible squashed up mess.
Space is crucial.

#9

I know it sounds like alot but essentially it’s just a playback machine, resampling station with an effect in front and an fx send. It’s not that much.

#10

True. But you are using 3 bits of gear when one will do.
Someone said it already, if you are using octatrack, why bring a laptop. (Also works the other way round, kinda)

#11

I understand. I said essentially a playback machine but it is doing much more ofc. It’s generating sound via a coding structure, routing stuff and housing vst’s.

I would love to slim it down in the future.

Thanks for thinking with me!