Learning Music Theory

The Lounge General Discussion
#124

But that’s exactly the point that punk was making.

That Sex Pistols gig in Manchester that everyone pretends they were at didn’t spawn all the bands it did because the Sex Pistols were any good. Quite the opposite, everyone that was there saw it and said “fucking hell, we can do that”. How can the message that anyone can make music if they want to possibly be anything other than positive?

All punk did was open the gates before doing the decent thing and fucking off. The music being played was all but irrelevant.

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#125

I think the basics and fundamentals listed above are inherent in most people by default, in the same way that perception of colour, temperature, brightness and other metrics are.

Maybe everyone is talking about different aspects and levels of theory which is where the disagreements are occurring? For example most people making techno don’t need to know chord names, just if they like the sound of the chord or not, but they would inherently know what tempo range to work in, or if they wanted swing etc.

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#126

I would agree. Rhythms and groove are quite simple and easy to navigate intuitively and groove is very difficult or impossible put onto a paper. I would even go so far as to say that studying music theory makes it harder to develop a personal style and feel as you’re kinda fighting against all that by forcing yourself to imitate the “feel” of a metronome and running all of the old standards through your head. It can definitely kill creativity for a long time.

I think knowledge on chords and keys are pretty much the only albeit for some v important things to take away from theory. Also if you want to be a session player it helps if you’re able to read and write music.

This is not to say theory isn’t useful but that it’s rarely necessary for making music.

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#127

Spot on! Yes I remember the infamous interview where a sozzled Bill Grundy was lambasting them for not representing the ‘proper’ music that toffs enjoy listening to and them calling him a dirty bastard haha. And they were right. :stuck_out_tongue:

Again spot on, that’s exactly what I meant. Whenever someone asks me what music theory is or says they’re scared of how difficult it is, I like to remind them that they already had a pretty good understanding of the basics before they even heard of the concept of theory. :smiley:

This is an absolutely brilliant video from perhaps my favourite YouTuber which describes that Sex Pistols interview I mentioned earlier and goes into a lot of detail on classical music and elitism:

Don’t be put off by the emoticon or the capitals in the title, it’s really very good.

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#128

That video is fantastic. Watched it a while back and thought the thumbnail does it a massive disservice. :+1:

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#129

There’s often a prevailing feeling in most art mediums that the less effort someone puts into something the less value it has.

It’s why people turn their nose up at ‘shortcuts’ and any form of automation, they consider it cheating - because it undermines the effort they put in to create their works.

Artists getting too caught up in the minutae of creating art and the ego that entails.

everybody who’s blocked they’re committing the cardinal sin of assuming their job is to make something good

AI generated art
#130

Music theory is not restrictive in any situation.

If one chooses to learn a musical instrument with the aim of playing classical music, that is not music theory being restrictive but the person’s choice of instrument and music genre.

If one chooses to only play Punk music, again it is the person’s choice that is restricting his style of music.

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#131

What people mean when they talk about restrictions is that often when people are given a set of boundaries, requirements or rules it’s natural for them to want to work within them. And knowing that X+Y=Z means you might not bother trying to get to Z any other way, which might have led to a new creative awakening, a splitting of genres or a breakthrough that takes you in a new direction.

Conversely of course sometimes knowing about a rule can help you find ways to break it.

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#132

I for one fall into the “tried to learn music theory but really have trouble getting to grips with the damn thing.”

I work as a associate professor in organizational psychology and i have to both read complex organization theory, as well as conduct fairly advanced statistical analysis… but still every time i tried to understand music theory i cant seem to gel with it. Actually i think what bugs me is the term “theory” as it is not particularly theoretical in my use of the word. It seems to be mostly a fairly large set of stuff to memorize, and learning achaic notation and piano skills. I have a background as a bass player so the most basic stuff like chord triads and songs in major/minor key i get. But all the stuff about memorizing keys and modes on a keyboard or as notation somehow puts me off.

I don’t want to learn complex orchestral harmonics or anything just get a solid foundation to understand and write electronic music. What got me somewhere was jason allens course on udemy, as theory was linked to songs and playing so maybe i should give his book a go. But to be honest i’m getting to the point where i just have to come to terms with my brain/mind not being able to understand composition/theory.

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#133

There is 0,02% chance that i will ever learn music theory.

On one side, Something tells me that knowing how to write music would be the fastest way to capture the “Incredible” sound palette and acrobatic structures that i hear in my head.

But all laziness aside, i just prefer to stay in the dark and keep the whole process mysterious. I like to discover the music while doing it.
I have a of awesome memories of fabulous dissonances or chord/notes progressions that came out from odd places…and i want to keep that feeling.

Not sure i would have found those sounds or melodies if knew the theory.
But there’s obviously a whole lot i could achieve by knowing the ways.
Either way i’m good.

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#134

Yep, once you de-mystify something you can never go back. That part of the magic is gone.
If the type of music you want to make doesn’t need it why ruin it.
I feel like music theory often times closes more doors than it opens, for me at least.

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#135

Most people aren’t saying that music theory is “essential”. They are explaining how it’s useful. People are responding that you don’t need it and backing that up with evidence of someone who succeeded as a vote against it

Many of the people who have been stating they are for it, have l also said that you don’t always need it. That it’s helpful to learn some and you don’t need to go full on composer snob.

Why would someone fight so hard against something when they don’t understand it? That seems like a really ignorant action to me.

I guess if you really see music theory as something detrimental then I can’t stop you fighting against it. That’s your choice.

I could very well be seeing this whole conversion incorrectly. But, if I can see that way, I would guess others probably can too.

This isn’t to put down the actual good conversations happening. Just questioning why people feel like it’s necessary to convince other people to avoid it.

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#136

I feel the complete opposite. I sometimes find something fascinating when making music and the mystery is so magnetic that I try to understand it better. And then I remember my theory studies and realize oh shiiiit this was what it meant. And I’ve found these experiences just add to my musical vocabulary and allow me to explore more and even deeper. Magic is definitely not gone, but more nuanced and detailed. And usually after learning something new I’m left with more questions, because now I have words to ask them. To me learning theory has been like acquiring a sort of spider sense. I just know more intuitively when and how to get into and out of trouble!

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#137

I think that the reality, like many things in life, is that it’s both.

Music Theory can almost definitely help some people be more creative and create the art of their dreams, equally those that have eschewed it have no doubt created unique works as a result.

Like with most topics I just like to get lost in the debate - it’s interesting to explore - I have no personal goal to convince anyone of anything though.

In fact I would feel irresponsible trying - I’m no expert :laughing:

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#138

I agree 100%

I definitely feel like it can be both as well.

Music theory is very dry and the majority of high level stuff only applies to composers and classical artists. It turns into mostly terminology for describing complex music things.

The lower end of it actually applies to ways that chords and and notes have been known to work together to evoke satisfying interactions.

It simply means that if you know those things you can try them when your experiments aren’t working. Or you can try them as an alternative and see which you like better.

It’s all meant to help you get things out easier and faster so that you can be prolific imo.
Also so that there is a common language where people can work together on something. Just like how you can have a conversation with a stranger in your native tongue.

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#139

Very good points!! I didn’t mean or say that the whole magic of music is gone once you learn theory, but that the mystery part of it often times suffers as you learn the rules and start playing by them.

It’s always good and interesting to hear contrary views as we all see these things so differently.

I for one am more interested in things I don’t quite understand than those I can rationally understand and explain.

When I was young I studied music in a music academy for some years playing the drums and I wish I didn’t. It ruined it for me and that’s where my attitude comes from.
As I didn’t have a second instrument, most of the melodic stuff went right over my head, fortunately.

I wouldn’t want to not know any theory at all but the way I see it atm is that I want to keep harmonies, chords and such a mystery. That’s what keeps me interested.

That being said it’s cool to hear all the things ppl with good theoretical knowledge are coming up with. For each their own way of course! :slight_smile:

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#140

I would be enclined to think the same, but i’m pretty sure that there is multiple ways to “live with the knowledge”.
Some people will enjoy their journey to master these rules, others won’t be able to do anything without, some will love to know the theory to bend it better.

Now it’s just me talking :
Often I’ve wondered…how is it possible to make music, having as most important concern :
“is it proper within the theory” ?

I remember seeing threads in many forums with people asking which chord should happen at this particular point, what are you “supposed” to add, where ae you “supposed” to go.

“Are you allowed to do that ?”
(The horror…)

That gave me the feeling that you could write music without actually creating it.
Sort of a Theory Tetris way of composing.
Like i said earlier, Knowing the rules is also knowing how to bend it, but i knew a few people who confirmed that knowing the theory was hard to go against.

The only musician that really gave me this feeling of missing something by not knowing the theory is Zappa.

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#141

One thing I feel I need to point out is that this is the kind of thread that would turn into an absolute dumpster fire in most other Internet forums.

The fact that there are many differing opinions being shared respectfully, and yet argued powerfully without any of the usual internet nonsense is what makes this place so great.

Regardless of whether you need music theory to communicate your musical ideas or not, owning an Elektron machine certainly seems to indicate you are capable of communicating in a respectful manner. :man_shrugging::+1:

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#142

There’s also a risk that if you know all of the rules and want to break them you get stuck making jazz.

200w

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#143

There is definitely the danger of the process becoming kinda mechanical and I’ve seen this happen with many of my friends. That whole what is “supposed” to happen here seems to take things over easily.

I also know so many previously interesting and promising musicians that ended up sounding average and honestly boring after studying music theory. More predictable and less personal.

Especially with synths that offer endless harmonic possibilities and sounds that are not bound by the laws of physics it seems like theory in many cases just keeps things grounded in the worst possible way.

I know this might sound extremely pretentious and idiotic, but, to me learning music theory is about as relevant and desirable as learning sexual theory. I don’t wan it to be rational, at all. I don’t want to think when making music.
Just a playful thought that rings very true to me nevertheless lol.

Intuitive exploration is where it’s at IMO.