Is it possible to change pattern whilst keeping the preset parameters?

Elektron Gear Model:Cycles
#1

Say I have several patterns that all have the same preset on each track, but with some variations in the notes/trigs. If I change the parameter on the current selected track, then change to another pattern, the preset will reset to its original values.

I’d like to be able to change the pattern whilst evolving a sound, maybe adding in more and more snares whilst making a lead sound louder/more intense. This is a very common style, particularly with early acid house and trance.

I’ve been trying to work this out for a while. Am I missing something fundamental? Is this even possible on the Model:Cyles?

#2

I don’t think there’s an obvious shortcut for what you want to do on the cycles, no. If you want to evolve your music over the course of several patterns you are inevitably going to find the sounds change to the values stored in the new pattern, as patterns change. You’ll either need to stay within one pattern, or prepare a sequence of patterns with sounds evolved to just the right point.

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#3

I wish it was…

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#4

That’s what kits are for on Analog Four/Keys, Analog Rytm, Machinedrum and Monomachine and Octatrack’s parts.

Maybe consider getting one of them? :slight_smile:

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#5

Unfortunately Cycles can’t do that. Track sounds and parameters are set per pattern.

You can kinda get close to what you want with this:

  1. Copy track sound
  2. Mute track
  3. Change pattern
  4. Paste track sound
  5. Unmute track

But this way doesn’t suit many genres and gets old very fast.

You can run your patterns on an external sequencer though.

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#6

We’ll that’s a shame. I feel this is a major shortcoming and the biggest drawback of the Model: Cycles so far.

I can think of ways this could be added into the firmware. Perhaps instead of pressing pattern then selecting trig buttons, you could keep pattern held down while selecting the trig button, and this could load the pattern notes but keep the current sounds? Or maybe bring this concept of kits, perhaps into the preset menu?

I seem to remember there’s a feature request somewhere? She’s anyone have the link? Perhaps we should all request a feature like this?

#7

Awesome idea … something of that sort ought to be relatively easy to squeeze into the current interface … either the way you said or by some specialised paste that pastes only notes of the entire pattern, not notes+ sounds.

Hmmm, dunno. Caveat: I am new to all this stuff but

  • it sounds like a radical rework of the M:C architecture
  • it’s a feature request which, like many others, brings features of more sophisticated elektron boxes to the model series. If elektron did all of these, the M:C would become (for example) a digitone, and they wouldn’t sell digtones any more. I know there’s a huge step from a cycles to a digitone, but you get my gist ? At some point it would hurt sales of the higher end boxes.

But like I said, I’m new to the elektron world so :man_shrugging:

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#8

Digitone and Digitakt don’t have kits either.

Thing is, though, most users are happy with that simple workflow and immediacy the Models and Digitone, Digitakt provide. It seems to be a huge selling point. I doubt they’ll ever get kits or something similar.

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#9

I don t know. Others regard them as toys for missing those features. Admittedly, Elektron went overboard with the memory structure complexity of the AR (i don t know about OT), but the MD and MM had kits and there was nothing too complicated about them. Super clear and direct user interface. Still revered to this day.

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#10

This is true though. A fundamental change like adding kits is not going to happen. We can hope/clamor for future devices though.

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#11

How about the other option of changing the patterns without changing the sounds? This would not complicate the workflow and would be easy to implement. Such a simple thing to add but it would open up a wealth of possibilities.

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#12

I’d be up for something like that. But consequences can sometimes be deeper than we first think, or create new usability issues.

In another thread I proposed a ‘live mixer mode’ in which track levels are retained when switching to a new pattern. That would solve an issue that for me is very annoying when I play live sets: jumps in volume when I’m mixing track levels live and the next pattern doesn’t have it at the same level. Your proposal goes further and retains all sound parameters.

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#13

I like that idea. I think it’s probably doable from the point of view of: will it fit in the present hardware interface, though I can’t see exactly what would be the best way. I have no idea how much firmware upheaval would be caused by that though, because effectively you’d be in a new pattern that’s distinct from the old pattern and the new pattern … but I suppose it may not be a lot different to a version of one of those patterns, but with unsaved changes.

Not sure I can see a use for it myself, but if it was there, I guess I’d find myself using it.

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#14

Another slight variation on that, which I actually just asked for in the survey:

  • Move to new pattern but optionally preserve sound and sequence from selected tracks. (E.g. keep rhythm tracks constant while changing melody, chords, or bass)
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#15

My suggestion was that when changing patterns, instead of pressing pattern then the trig key, press pattern and trig key. This would signify ‘change pattern but keep current sounds’. I would propose that you have not changed new patterns sounds, you effectively changed the pattern then automatically changed all the parameters to what they were in the old pattern. There for if you pressed func+pattern to reload the pattern, it would change the sounds back to the actual sounds for that pattern. Am I making sense? This way it would fit the hardware interface.

As a software engineer myself I don’t think it would be a huge problem, but I’m just guessing because I’m not familiar with the firmware codebase.

Also, where is this survey you mentioned? I might add to that.

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#16
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#17

Having started out with the Digitwins, then a M:C, I was pretty used to their pattern workflow.

I recently bought an Octatrack and the whole parts structure has been a revelation. It really does kinda ruin the M:C pattern workflow a bit for me, so now I’m probably going to end up sequencing it from the OT so that I can use the M:C’s pattern structure as kits.

I think it would be pretty difficult to implement some sort of kits structure within the M:C itself, even if Elektron were inclined to do it, which I’m not sure they are.

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#18

That’s interesting … I’m considering getting an M:S so that I can use one as a constant “kit” while the other has developing melody and harmonic structure … not 100% thought this through though.

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#19

Yeah, that could work, but, as much as I love limitations, the sacrificing of audio tracks for midi tracks and no audio in makes using them together feel a little bit like multiplying the limitations.
If the M:S had an audio input and sampling capabilities the two models would really be awesome together.

After a month of owning the OT, the possibilities for controling, Sampling, looping and processing the M:C are hurting my head, it’s just endless.

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#20

Isn’t the kit structure on A4/AK and AR similar to MD and MM?

Octatracks parts are basically kits, though only four are available per bank.

Anyways, I don’t think kits are complicated per se, just requires some time to get to know the machines and structure, rtfm, you know^^ :laughing:
For a new user that wants to dive right in, of course it can be confusing when the sound changes, seamingly out of the blue and there seems no way of getting it back.

But then, those machines were not made to ‘dive right in’ without rtfm-ing…

I thought about getting non-kit Elektrons many times, especially Digitakt and Digitone, but also Model:Samples. Ultimately the lack of kits is a show-stopper for me.

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