Headroom, gain staging, stereo space and other headaches

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Hi guys,

I have an issue with my OT that is not so easy to describe as I’m not a professional sound engineer.

I usually start producing with kick and bass, filter and add compression on each track to give it more thump. At that point it seems that the signal coming out of each track is already very “hot”, like there’s no headroom left. When I add other elements they don’t seem to mix well, I lose dynamics. An incremental increase of even a few values of a track’s level or effects can cause distortion.

The gain staging sweet spot is very difficult to find if you’re not starting from pre-mixed/pre-mastered samples/stems. I lose a lot of time trying to mix everything correctly, from levels to frequencies, and it’s becoming a pain.

Should I:
[ul]
[li]Stop using compression on each track?[/li]
[li]Lower the volume of samples in the sample edit menu and stop normalizing samples in general to give them more room?[/li]
[li]I usually leave all the volume parameters of the OT at default value (AMP page, main levels etc), should I tweak that to obtain more headroom?[/li]
[li]Other suggestions?[/li]
[/ul]

The other issue I’m having is obtaining deep stereo space. In many of my favourite artists’ tracks, there seems to be a “tail” of sound that expands the depth of the track on each side. It’s a sort of reverb/delay thing on the master that both binds sounds together and gives everything more room, more air. A true stereo feel which I’m finding hard to reproduce on the OT.

I love the OT and composing on it since day one, but I’m having trouble knowing if it’s really what I’m looking for. I feel like it’s really great for live performance of pre-produced tracks or stems, but more limited to use as a production hub/mixer. Maybe push+ableton is a better solution? I want to keep off the computer though…

I’d really like the advice of someone who’s made whole tracks with the OT and is satisfied with the whole gain staging and building stereo space in the box.

Thanks for you help.

Very little headroom
Inconsistent Volume
#2

It’s maybe not what you want, but recently I realised the best way to go is to create audio stems and premix/premaster them in DAW first.

#3

I think normalizing is a good thing, a way to get a similar initial level on every sample.
Then let the amp level be at its half to let you some headroom.
Be careful on the FX : comp is OK as long as you don’t go crazy on the compensative gain. I like to mix some dry signal with the wet signal to keep some dynamics. Btw compressor kills the dynamics, so if you think you have none left, maybe try not using it at all…
I barely put any distorsion on the filters, I like the way it saturates but don’t use it that often.

Now I’m not an OT expert, far from it : I have made no track on the OT only so far.

But still, this way I manage to play with other machines without too much trouble.

Oh ! One thing I like to get some dynamics once the samples are OK : maybe plock the amp volume or set an LFO on this parameter (e.g. small depth / random signal / hold) : it’s a very good way to get your track more alive.

#4

I would recommend using the cue outs and sending all your drums/heavily compressed tracks through your interface on a separate stereo channel if possible. This usually will free up a ton of headroom for your other tracks.

#5

Not gonna do that, like I said I bought the OT to stay off the computer screen and that’s what it’s supposed to do.

EDIT: maybe an alternative to creating stems in the DAW would be to produce stems/loops on the OT rather than using tracks for one shots or single instruments. It’s a different kind of workflow where you don’t have as much control over each elements but might make things more simple composition-wise and sound-wise as a whole. Anybody works like that?

#6

Good idea, I usually leave the mix level to 127, I’ll try to play with that.

#7

I’ve thought of testing that and have good hopes it will tidy things up a bit, I’m just missing a particular cable to plug the OT to my mixer.
I’ll keep you posted once I’ve tried it, thanks.

#8

If the process of mixing all your single tracks is a time consuming process, I would recommend to use samples and loops, which have been prepared that most of the frequency bands don’t get into trouble. Like separating the Bass from the Kick etc. This would make EQing in the life-tracks of your performance almost unnecessary, because most of the audio is sorted out already.

If you want to stay inside the OT, you can prepare your samples and loops as needed and resample them as processed audio for later use. More convenient would be, to use a DAW. I would recommend to use compression later and only non-destructive for the tracks, where needed. This preserves headroom.

Did you consider to use Track 8 as a master track? I find it most convenient to have a track, which glues together all the other 7 with some final EQing and compression.

#9

Maybe your early use of filter and comp could be seen as ‘effects’ use, whereas later you want to use filter and comp for mixing purposes - The problem being that they are already in use at the more extreme end of their range, as effects.

You could try sampling the early phrases of kick and bass, then working with the samples, bringing (the now free) effects in again for fine tuning in the mix.

Obviously this loses the flexibility and dynamics of the early effects (which is what the OT is good at). To get that back somewhat you could run a separate project or bank for the heavily effected elements, where the effects are still live - then take samples from there to bring into the main project/bank where subtler effects are needed.

The stereo space thing - I kind of feel that the OT reverbs are really best for obvious effects rather than the slight opening up of the space of a track. They’re a bit dramatic. I got out my old lexicon unit and put it on the CUEs as an FX loop and seemed to be instantly getting what I have always failed to get on ‘Dark Reverb’. The Spatializer can be really nice, but it seems to tip from ‘not enough’ to ‘too much’ very easily.

I relate to becoming weary of the space in a track after spending too much time with it. Try adding or changing reverbs, delays or chorus as a 'temporary measure" just to change the scenery for yourself for a while. Leave the big decisions to later

takes own advice and never finishes a track

EDIT: SoundRider said the first part better a couple of minutes before me! Still it’s another vote for resampling & yes, I would keep the samples of kick and bass phrases separate always - they need to stay individually tweakable EQwise, plus having a library of phrases for each allows for surprise combinations later.

#10

Thanks for your advice !

So the way I should do it is maybe work on composition with raw samples to start with, with as little FX as possible. Then once I’m happy with this initial result, mix the sounds and resample them in a “smart” way to keep the processed samples/loops rather than the raw material.

It seems pretty time consuming, but I guess it’s a necessary compromise…?

Like I said, I’ve enjoyed the OT since the beginning and I also enjoy a reasonable amount of constraints, but I’m starting to feel like the machine is so constraining I constantly have to make choices. It’s not so much the complexity that’s bothering me but the fact that it limits certain stuff so much. It’s like I’m always looking for workarounds to doing what I want instead of focusing on being creative.

Oh well, maybe it’s just a temporary crisis… :sob:

#11

That’s one of the main draws of hardware for me, the limitations force me to rethink my workflow and approach things in new ways.

For me the key to getting good sounding mixes in the OT is just making sure I keep things focused and simple. Use the filters a lot to cut out subby rumble or tame stray peaks, spend a lot of time really fine tuning the volume of each part to get full mixes without making things so loud they distort.

I tend to keep my track volumes at max and use the amp parameter to set the mix values early on. Master volume set to half way as well. That way I can get the mix sounding nice and full and still have plenty of headroom later on that I can boost into with the master volume when I want it to be competitively louder.

3 Likes
#12

this is one of my favourite things about working with audio instead of midi — working with samplers in particular.
you have to commit to a sound. i like that. it stops you from endlessly replacing that snare with another one etc.
it takes time, but making good music does take time. enjoy the process, i guess. :slight_smile:

1 Like
#13

this is key — on any system/device/daw etc.

1 Like
#14

I’ve thought of testing that and have good hopes it will tidy things up a bit, I’m just missing a particular cable to plug the OT to my mixer.
I’ll keep you posted once I’ve tried it, thanks.[/quote]
I’ve quickly tested sending kick+bass trough the cue outs (studio mode) and it’s working pretty well. The one thing I’ve realized though is that what gets sent to cue outs doesn’t benefit from the Master track effects anymore. Master effects are only applied to Main outputs. I’m wondering then if I should rather send kick+bass to the Main and the rest to Cue. I’ll test later…

#15

Quick question slightly off topic: anyone know what the level meter of the Master track corresponds to? I couldn’t find it in the manual.

It seems to act like the Main volume (turning it down silences all tracks) but is actually not an alias. What’s the point of that in terms of volume routing?

#16

If you have problem you should use the computer at least as a level meter and as a oscilloscope ? So you can visualise how your eq filter affect the sound what you remove, what you add, is it too loud etc… headroom is important as well on machines and i tend to mixing on an analog mixer so use all my outputs in this way by subgrouping by eq placement exactly how i mix on a daw. i think using the best of both world is nice if at the end you satisfied by the result.

Compression is a debate for decades (now jajaja). DO we produce music as hearing deficient for people with also hearing problem… Or is it just a subtle things here plus subtle eq here and subtle reverb here and there to get a clean and sexy mix as hell :stuck_out_tongue:

On computer we all try to keep -12 to -6dB of headroom i think on machines you should keep that way… and add saturation in the last step of the audio chain so generally i start to saturate/overdoo things on the mixer before it’s get out on master channel.

But i keep parallel / new york techniques for the early stages usually. And also i use always the techniques to pull down a bit each layers of tweaking i add or substitute or introduce so when i’m happy with a reverb i usually pull down a bit, same with eying, same with level balance, same with compression, same with fx… also compare/bypass for solo track and in the song/group context.

Avoid HEADPHONE the most you can. Get a SUB for mixing compress SUB, KICK, BASS and cut it when you don’t need it (on the over part) TRY your mix at every stage on more than just your monitors. Should help.

The problem with headphones is we habit to the loudness and volume and it’s a pleasure delivery so we always tend to get higher and higher and more with tired coming. So my advise is tend to separate mixing from produce (compose) i usually mixing on the morning if i compose/produce and somehow by the matter of fact i need gain for feel i make 1 day OFF to come back to mixing. Also i mix always at low volume !!! it’s always more chirurgical to doing things like this. Treat the room where you’re working with your budget if you can ! it should help or use the K-system if you can’t have a dedicate room or can’t get a budget for treat the room acoustic.

Hope it gives also like the other advises some way and ideas to get better results ! keep faith too

#17

Really good advices: not abuse of headphones, treat the room, diferent speakers ( if it’s possible ) to compare between them and the most important: while composing do not think too much about the sound, just create. Then, start mixing and giving the space to the diferent sounds; what you want to give important pressence in the song, what it just needs to be there to create atmosphere and to give motion…
And remember sound is cartesian:

                                                High

Left Right
Low
Regards

#18

Definitely think you should hold off on your compression until you already have other sounds going on. The problem with tweaking these sounds in isolation is that making things louder makes things sound better, and it can be very easy to just keep making things louder and louder, whereas if you have other sounds as reference, you are more likely to keep them to a volume in relation to each other. get your groove going first, and then tweak those kicks.

Also set track 8 as a master, and use compression + reverb to bring everything together and give it a sense of space. or you could could just do that after the OT either on pc, or via outboard hardware.

Though one very important thing to keep in mind is that the OT isn’t really designed to make tracks completely from scratch. Despite what you might have read it is not Ableton in a box, it’s best as an arranger, for experimentation, for improvisation. It’s skills in mixing, mastering, production stages are pretty limited, you’ll need something external to do all your analysis, you can’t create mix buses, and you’ll probably find yourself needing to transfer samples on and off and wishing you hadn’t tried to do it on the OT at all. Even as an arranger, all the tracks are locked together in each pattern, unlike something like ableton, or even things like fl studio or lsdj where you can change parts of a ‘pattern’ independent of each other. It’s in these kinds of tasks that people tend to get upset at the OT because of something that it isn’t, and come here to rant about how useless it is.

2 Likes
#19

I tend to keep my track volumes at max and use the amp parameter to set the mix values early on.

Sorry to bump this oldie, but what is the advantage to using the amp parameter and track volumes in this way? Honest question.

The downside is you lose the convienience of quicky adjusting the track levels.

#20

I might be wrong, but I think the AMP volume affects what goes into the effects whereas the track volume is the output after the effects. So adjusting the AMP will affect the way your effects sound.

3 Likes