EQing the AR for a live situation

Elektron Gear Analog Rytm
#1

Greetings Elektronauts!

I am facing a mixing problem and I’m hoping you can help me with this:
I have been preparing a live set on my device for some time (mixing to this point in the studio was done on the AR ofc, but with OB, Ableton and the lovely Spectrum Analyzer to get precise info on levels, frequency ranges, etc.). My set though will be played without a PC, so only with the AR and (possibly) other hardware. As you probably know, the device outputs a lot of low frequencies, so you can’t avoid the use of high-pass filters. However, I use the multimode filter more often in lowpass or bandpass mode, because I need it for sound design rather than mixing.
I’ve been thinking about this topic for some time and came up with a few ideas, but in my head they all have a downside to it. It would be a great help, if you would give me clues how to eliminate / minimize the negative aspects (or even better come up with a solution).
Here are my thoughts:

  1. use an equalizer: I’m thinking of a device like the xfilter from Elysia. It has a low-cut filter and also gives me the opportunity to shape the overall sound with other EQ bands.
    Downside: I’m changing the master output of the device and do not edit the individual sounds, I think that this can’t replace “proper” EQing of the individual sounds and it won’t reach the desired effect.
  2. Resampling: The AR offers the wonderful possibility to resample sounds and thus endless sound design possibilities. It’s a good idea to re-record a finished sound (in which the filter is already “reserved” for the sound-shaping aspect) and “compress” it into a sample. Now you can use your filter again to eliminate the “bad frequencies” :smiley: .
    But here is a catch too: to record parameter locks (for the desired variation), I would have to record the entire loop. If I do that for every sound, I’m afraid the RAM will explode quickly. If i re-record the same sound in different variations, my sample slots are going to be full quickly.
  3. use a mixer: I could buy a small mixer and use the individual outputs of the device. Advantage: I can use an (rudimentary) EQ on every channel for (nearly) every sound.
    Problem: I always structure my kits differently when the creative juices are flowing, which means sometimes the kickdrum is on pad/output 1, sometimes on pad/output 5. This could be restructured via resampling, but my thoughts on that are already described above. In addition, all the panorama modulations would be lost (I’m not sure about that here: I know that the single outputs of the device are symmetrical, but is L / R transmitted, if I run them into a stereo channel (with the right Adapter)? Please correct me, if I’m wrong!)

Finally a few words to my live set approach: I do not despise musicians who use a laptop when performing, I am aware of the possibilities offered by DAWs, but as a spectator I always have this ulterior motive: “what is really played live now & what not?” In times of commercial festivals, nothing is left to chance anymore (often; definitely not everytime!). Things like backingtracks can be reasonable, if you’re a small band and simply not able to perform every part of your songs live. But as a solo (electronic) artist, for me personally, this takes the playing-live-aspect as spectator, as well as musician, away. But this is only my personal opinion (!), and don’t get me wrong, I am still able to really enjoy live sets with PC(s) on stage!

However, I hope I have overlooked a possibility so far and you can help me with this. Thank you very much in advance!

P.S.: my english skills aren’t the best, please forgive me if I made you cry while reading this thread. :stuck_out_tongue:

Cheers!

#2

You touch upon perhaps the greatest weak point I’ve found on the Rytm: no EQ. The MD has a 1-band EQ on each voice and a master 3-band EQ. That gets a lot done. The Rytm would greatly benefit from that. I too use the filters for sound design, not EQ, and then there’s nothing left inside the box.

In my workflow I use main outs, no individual outs. I often use my Analog Heat to take of top end. And tweak the rest roughly with the 4-band EQ on my mixer.

I don’t feel I’ve mastered this topic. I really miss EQ tweaking possibilities on individual voices but splitting it all out on mixer channels adds so much complexity, and it doesn’t get saved with the kit. Looking forward to hearing more approaches. I don’t use software either.

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#3

Just an idea… What about using a mixer + an oldskool hifi EQ unit as a effect send return… This gives u alot more flexibility.

So for each individual sound you can set the dry/wet ratio of the EQ as an effect

#4

You mean a graphic EQ? https://dbxpro.com/en/products/1231

Not negative about unorthodox solutions but I don’t see how that solves things. That’s 1 EQ device shared by multiple tracks, so taking out the low of one means taking out the low of any channel sent to it.

We 'd also have to split out the tracks on individual mixer channels and in that case we could already use the mixer channel EQs. No need for another EQ device.

#5

Yes I do mean an EQ like that.

Those work a lot different from a EQ on a Dj/live mixer because you have way more frequency’s you can tune.

I would setup the graphic EQ as a base, so cutting off everything below 20/30/40 whatever suits. and use it to tweak the sound per situation.

Because I kinda got that the problem was a lot of uncontrollable low frequencies. If the kick/bassline is just too much volume, then of course you can just fix this by lowering the volume of that specific track in the AR

The EQ on the DJ/live mixer you would then use just like a DJ uses them, so for musicality, enhancing drops etc, by fully cutting the bass for example

Also because you are using the EQ as an effect send, you can vary the dry/wet signal per track

I think this will give you much more control of your sound, and allowes you to also use different effects on different channels, and gives you the flexibility to tune your sound to each location (bar/club etc). While still having the EQ’s on the DJ/live mixer on neutral and use them for musical purposes

#6

If youre going with a master eq solution - and this is just my experience, but ive got a lot of use for the Analog Heat live, the filter in tandem with the eq + «adaptive» triggered (with envelope) filteringis very practical and covers a lot. Then you will have presets also.

#7

first of all: thanks for sharing your ideas! :slight_smile:

this approach is like my 1st suggestion above. I am talking about the uncontrollable frequencies (<20 Hz) as well as the “normal” low frequencies (about 50-200 Hz). I often record sounds directly into the device, so I can’t process the samples in a DAW (I think it is super tedious in the long run, it also limits my working speed enormously), so I have not yet made a low-cut. The downside that I already attached above was that I would work on the Master Bus and not on the individual sounds. Because of that I can’t (for example) set the low-cut for Sound 4 at 200 Hz, since I use the filter for sound design purposes. If I lead the sounds individually into the mixer, I will again be confronted with the “restructuring” & panning Problem.

#8

I tend to use the AR band bass filters on the mid and top sounds and try and mix in the box that way. Very little reverb, I use an Octatrack live too and have my AR plugged into that. I use the EQ and compressor to carve out a space for a synth and a compressor to beef it up.
I then use a neighbor machine to add reverb and filters for fx + fun…
I would like an analog mixer at some point tho…

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#9

I’m also building up a live set with AR, AK, and eventually some send effects. I decided to go for a digital mixer, which, depending on the features, behaves like a simple DAW, but still is undoubtedly hardware – I feel you when it comes to not wanting to see someone looking into a laptop on stage…

The nice part about it is that you can receive program change messages from the Rytm, so whenever you want to, a pattern change introduces a scene change on the mixer and you immediatley have the settings recalled you need for the pattern: Routing, EQ, panning, volume, and whatever else your mixer features. Which can be quit a lot. For example if you route one input signal to two different busses and pan and proceed them differently. You can produce a bit like in your DAW, but still have hands on faders. At the same time, a nice mixer can work as a very powerful midicontroller of your Rytm, because it has motorized faders.

It has a price of course, and weight, but I recommend big time.

2 Likes
#10

Very interesting topic. Is EQing of individual sounds really necessary for live use? If you mix all elements well on the AR maybe it sounds good enough. We already have the usual sound design/mixing methods available such as pitching a sample a bit up or down if it’s too resonant or using the filters of course, simply lowering the volume of the sample, sometimes replacing a sample if it does not work and the compressor goes a long way in keeping things under control - frequency wise too.

I don’t mean to sound like I’ve figured it all out but I find that I need less EQing with the AR than when I used a DAW just using these simple methods and because of the AR’s great sound.

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#11

I found that i get better results when i put the Analog Rythm through my QuPac and using that EQ - sound a lot more transparent. Its 11 Kg device - so nees some lifting - could be bought used, as a lot of guys switch to the new SQ 5/6.

#12

If you get a soundcheck, play some bass-heavy material, and if it’s too boomy ask the tech to turn on a HP filter on the master and tweak it until it improves the boominess without removing the frequencies you want to keep. Don’t worry about individual LPs for each track if it isn’t causing you troubles inside the machine.

#13

I think the only viable solution that comes to mind is using a digital mixer with program changes. But those are big and expensive. Maybe the behringer X32 or similar could work for you? Or a qupac

Anoher option is to develop a strict “track dogma” and sticking to it, so that you can manage cutting lows with as few EQ channels as possible.

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#14

If we want to avoid splitting out AR tracks to individual mixer channels I think that’s indeed what we have to resort to: careful sound design and mixing.

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#15

Sure, this is what a soundcheck is for, but we’re talking about EQ treatment of individual tracks, not just the main mix.

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#16

Yeah, I know; it just seems to me that there is no easy way around this, and the OP should probably concentrate on getting the best possible mix possible inside the Rytm. If they do a good job, the house EQ should be able to take care of the rest.

#17

Yeah the thing I’ve slowly learned is that a specific method needs to be adopted to your rytm sound design. It can do a lot of things but not all of them will end up usable later. Track discipline is important as is gain staging and envelopes play a large part in making sure sounds get out of the way as early as possible.

#18

that’s what i figured. i’m working on my mix in the box continously; not very fond of buying a heavy/expensive digital mixer although i really like the idea to control my mixdown via program messages.

@Soarer i worked only with ableton in the first place, that’s why i was not really sure if it is necessary to mix the sounds of the AR indivdually. i aswell think it sounds really great :smiley:

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#19

maybe just hi pass the main out and have some low-end tracks separate.

filter as much as you can for eq.

i have been thinking of making a rack case with AR and a behringer x air series.
eq for every channel, recording and some more effects :slight_smile:

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#20

Here’s an option for you, that you can tweak the workflow (I’m not 100% sure if this is possible). Have Ableton running, screen closed, tucked away. Send per-channel audio over Overbridge to Ableton, and map EQs on each channel to one of the Faderfox with pots (or other pot-heavy MIDI controller), and then send the audio back to it for output, or sum in Ableton and output through another audio interface.

You get the aesthetics of the “no-laptop” with the power of a DAW.

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