Dark Trinity Song-Mode: How do you sync them?

Elektron Gear Other Elektron Gear
#1

hi everybody,

I just “discovered” the wonders of the OT Arranger, and I would like to use it as the heart of my setup (which consists of OT, A4 & AR). Now I would like to go from manually pattern-switching and muting tracks on 3 devices to more planned arrangements.

Ideally, I would like to use all 3 devices in Song Mode, have identical number of “rows” for every song on every device, and when I switch to another row on the OT, the other devices should follow. Also, if the OT loops a row, the other devices should loop that row as well (I did not find the infinity loop feature on the AR Song mode…?).

Is this even possible? I tried a basic Song on all three devices, but so far, I only managed to make the A4 & AR follow pattern changes from the OT. This might be a solution, but I would like to keep the possibility to play different patterns on each device, lets say: OT A01, A4: B12, AR: A03.

How do you guys use the Song Modes / Arranger with OT + A4/AR?

#2

Can’t help but subscribed to your topic. Hopefully some experts will come in and give us an education :slight_smile:

#3

Hmm, sadly the Arranger in the OT is far far better than Analog´s Song mode.

My advice is to use only the Octatrack arranger and then use different patterns for each row, that way program change is automatically used to change patterns on the Analog Boxes, also on the Analog Four/Keys/Rytm you must have the correspondent patterns. Yes I know, a waste of patterns.

If you use just the Analog Four/Keys there is a big advantage, you can use the Multi Map feature. You can use a MIDI track on the OT to send a note that will trigger the pattern of your choice whenever you want, you can even use OT arranger´s transpose feature to change Analog Four/Key pattern, and just spending a single pattern on the OT.

I hope Elektron will add Multi Map to the Rytm soon.

(If you use a computer there are nice tools control Analog boxes flow from the Octatrack, if you are interested just let me know)

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#4

I use the OT Arranger a lot, and just let the A4 follow the OT pattern changes as that to me seemed like the easiest way to go about it.

If the A4/AR have their own arrangements and they are slaves to the OT, I believe they will start at the beginning whenever you hit Start after hitting Stop. So if you, say, hit stop, move down to row three in all your arrangements and hit Play again the OT will start at row three, the rest at row 1. To avoid this, you need to not press Stop. Use Play/Pause instead.

EDIT: Ooh, the Multi Map trick sounds nice.

#5

thanks for the replies. unfortunately, having corresponding patterns on all 3 devices means i will have to start everything anew…

i start jamming around on every device on its own, and i will have a beat on the Rytm on A03 that will fit to a A4 melody on pattern B04, for example. This is why I want to arrange them later via OT (because thats my master).

As I did a little google search, I discovered this topic, in which user “husc” mentions that

“If you set other Elektron machines to song mode the rows sync up.”

This is exactly my question, as I did not manage to get A4 & AR to sync their rows in Song Mode with the OT’s Arranger.

#6

I am interested in this! can you tell me more? :wink:

#7

As far as I know,this is not true,I already spend lot of time listening to midi data and nothing comes with row changes.

#8

I am interested in this! can you tell me more? ;)[/quote]
Check this thread Ableton push tame elektrons!

#9

This is an interesting topic.
I have been looking at PUSH/Live for this exact purpose.
Would rather do all the control from the OT though and avoid the computer.

So from reading this it seems support for MIDI map on the Rytm would make all the difference?

#10

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I use an OT and an A4 live in exactly the way the OP describes. I use the arranger to build complex sets and then match them in the A4’s song mode. It took me ages to get it just right, the OT’s arranger is amazing but the song mode on the A4 is lacking in functionality. Basically as long as you have transport messages being sent to the slave they will always match up, even if you start from halfway down the arrangement. The problems arise if you make the song mode songs on the A4 too long, beyond a certain point they will always go back to the start no matter where you start the arranger from. I got around this by having only two tracks per song on the A4. So each track would be one line of chains in the song mode. I would of course then have to match this in the arranger: so two tracks per arrangement and two per song in song mode. I then obviously have to load up new arrangement and song files every two tracks but I think this works for me, give ms a little breather and I use a Kaoss pad to bleed out the reverb at the end of the arrangements when I’m swapping between them. It’s complicated and annoying that it has to be this way but that’s how it is. I’m used to it now and I like doing live sets like this. I hope that makes sense [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]:wink:

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#11

@gbravetti: this looks very promising. however, I don’t have Push - is there a way to use your tool anyways (and be it just for testing purposes?)

@milescosmo: can you please explain a little more how you use the OT & A4 to match together in SongMode? when having one row per song on the A4, how do you sync OT’s arranger rows to them?

I don’t think having just one row per song will fit my needs, as I would like to have some points where the arrangement loops infinitely so that I can tweak some knobs etc, and then jump to the next part of the arrangement.

Also, multi map feature sounds like a workaround (at least for the A4), but I bet it’s hard to keep the overview over the arrangement.

#12

Of course you can try “Performer”

With Performer you have 64 banks, each one with 16 snaps.

Each snap can recall a different pattern for each of your Analog Boxes, also mute states, track levels, etc.

You can recall snaps by using Push, but also you can recall snaps by using a MIDI note (like with MultiMap), so you can use a MIDI track on your OT and/or your OT MIDI keyboard as you would with Push. Also you can recall and navigate Performer’s snaps using OT Crossfader gestures.

Just fill this survey and you’ll get invited soon to the Performer Beta FB group: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mci9rrxigchsuoM7xmIov-93NRkjwUzT17lO7STAxoE/viewform?usp=send_form

I’m traveling right now, I’ll back next weekend, then I’ll prepare a “shareable” beta.

#13

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I’m not sure exactly what else to say about it, if you want the A4 to sync with the OT then you need to make sure the OT is sending midi clock and transport messages, and you need to make sure the A4 is receiving them too. If you have an arrangement setup and a song setup then the one slaved will just follow the other one, and by that I mean that it doesn’t keep track of what the OT is playin it just knows where it’s up to. You have to make sure it’s playing the right patterns at the right time but if you set it up right it will always playback the same. I found having one track per row in song mode to be the neatest way to work, it makes copying whole songs from one song file to another really easy, and trust me when I say that that is a handy thing to be able to do easily. As for having looping sections I’m sure this can be done but I don’t do it myself so I can’t really give much advice on the matter. I know the OT’s arranger can do it and I’m fairly sure the A4’s song mode can too. You just need to think of each device as doing its own thing but they’re following the same timeline. I hope that is clearer for you.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]One more point and I think this goes for a lot of people on this forum: stop reading Elektronauts, go to your machines and use them, have the manual with you and just keep using them, bash your head against that metaphorical brick wall. The only reason I know these things is because I spent the time to learn them. It wasn’t easy, it was frustrating at times but in the end I learnt what the limits of these devices are and I worked within those limitations to get what I wanted. I think with elektrons products you just need to sort of sweet talk them into doing what you want; they’re very subtle and delicate machines and they require time more than anything else for you to understand their nuances. Anyway, I’m not trying to be an A-hole I’m just saying that the best thing any of us can do is just use our instruments, read the manual again and again and don’t expect everything to happen super easily. You want the results then you need to put the work in, and if you do you’ll be rewarded. Keep at it man, it’ll make sense soon :slight_smile:

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#14

Are you saying that OT sends a MIDI message each time a new Row plays?

Are you sure that this is not the program change that the OT sends each time a different pattern plays? And by the way, this is completely independent of the row #.

Thanks for clarifying.

#15

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]It’s not a program change its called transport, it’s in the midi settings of both the OT and the A4. It’s all about length and number of steps, so if I have two lines in the arranger which last for 64 steps each and on the A4 song mode I have one pattern that is 128 steps, if I select the second of the two 64 step rows in the arranger and press play then the A4 will start playing halfway through the 128 step pattern. So at any point in your arrangement if you select a row it will select the corresponding point in the A4 song and start from there. Make sense? The problem I mentioned in my first post about not making the songs too long is that beyond a certain point in a long arrangement on the OT, the A4 will not select the corresponding step, instead it will always just go back to the beginning of the song. As such I have learned to not go past this threshold because of you stop the sequence the A4 will go back to the start, however if you don’t stop the sequence it will just finish playing the song, so it’s risky to make them too long. I hope that’s clear :slight_smile:

#16

Thanks for your explanation. AKAIK his only works when the sequencer stops, which makes it kind of useless, i think. I’m dreaming of something like the ableton live clip launcher view, where you can start different scenes, etc.
anyways. concerning “learning the machines” and “banging your head on the wall”–I understand what you mean (no pain, no gain), but i just want to make music. if i have to spend more time setting stuff up and “learning” the quirks of a tool, than making actual music, then this tool might just not be the right one for me.

#17

I totally get that and yeah it might not be for you. There is definitely room for improvement with the Elektron stuff but I also think you just have to work within their own limitations and that’s not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. I wish you luck :slight_smile:

#18

This is possible because the Elektron instruments use MIDI Song Position Pointer messages in their Arranger or Song modes.

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#19

Hi Digging up this post because I’m currently experimenting with the dark trinity’s song modes

Yes the OT’s arranger is far superior to the AK/AR, but the AK/AR enable easy mutes per pattern
(sadly not scenes per pattern, that would be a great addition)

I was initially unable to get the AK/AR to follow the OT arranger, this was because I normally use automatic program changes (so that the other’s jump to the same pattern as the OT)

You have to DISABLE the Program change tick-box in order to get the AK/AR arrangers to follow

Result, you have 3 independent arrangers, synced in time, it is a hassle to program the arrangement in each machine, but it does give you mutes and flexibility

#20

I gave up to arrange 3 boxes. I noticed that arranging/ playing the patterns live is more fun and gives me more freedom to adjust my playlist during a gig. I’m a starter in playing live so maybe i’m missing something don’t know … bye😸 hope this helps you a little bit

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