Last night I took an existing project, copied it’s pattern to slot 2 and tweaked it into something else. In doing so I loaded up new samples into RAM and messed with them until I got what I wanted. I then saved the pattern and saved the project with the Function shortcuts. During this time I could switch from one pattern to the other and even though they had different sounds and even master compressor settings, the DT changed back and forth with no problem.
Today I opened the same project and a lot of the samples I had loaded were missing. Also one one of the tracks with the missing samples all the changes I made to the filter and both LFOs were back to zero. The master compressor was set to my pattern A settings and not the one I had dialed in the night before.
The sample that was playing in pattern B was a different sound that I had loaded into RAM a few days before for Pattern A. So now I am wondering what I could have done wrong?
Tonight I made another track off that same pattern and this time I cleared the old patterns out and purged the unused samples, saved as a new project with a new name and saved and named the patterns. I then opened up transfer and grabbed the project file off the DT to backup on my HD, just to be safe. I also Func Save pattern all the time throughout my sessions.
I feel like I must have done something wrong because in the past I opened the DT and the project sounded the same as usual. But this little episode made me nervous so I decided to do the full backup and consult with you all on what could have caused this.
Per my understanding the function combo saves are not the same as a project save in the menu, not that it explains why you lost data from the temporary pattern memory, but I think some other people have said something similar. Either way, think of the function saves differently than the project save from within the menu, I always remind myself to do both. I’m not pro enough to wing it on stuff like this so I just try to double down and hope for the best.
Ok, if it’s good then great, if not then there’s something you can try. First did you buy it new or did you pick it up secondhand when you were talking about getting it recently?
I’m wondering if it came with the most recent OS installed or did you have to update when you got it?
Ok, if it came from the factory with 1.50 it’s probably not going to help. Sometimes something seems to get stuck in the transition between OS upgrades, can’t really articulate what the problem would be but it’s like certain data in the firmware becomes corrupt or doesn’t overwrite correctly and ends up causing weird issues without anything appearing to be visibly wrong. There’s a couple vague cure-all type fixes that seem to work, but unless you experience something similar again after having saved both temporary and project, let’s not worry about it yet. Just update this if the issue persists or send me a message and I’ll tell you what’s worked for a few other people.
That is definitely the case for the pattern save, but how do you arrive at that conclusion about the project save?
I’ve been using the shortcut exclusively for years without any data loss when switching projects.
The manual would explain if there were any difference, but as I understand it explicitly says the shortcut and the menu entry do the exact same thing. Here’s what the manual has to say:
[SETTINGS] contains the management of projects, MIDI configuration, and the System settings. The secondary function¹ saves the current project.
¹ which is [FUNC] + [SETTINGS]
15.1.2 SAVE PROJECT AS (page 62)
Save Project opens a project selection screen where you choose a slot to save the active project to. You can also press [FUNC] + [SETTINGS] to access this screen.
But for the temporary save pattern function there is a huge warning with the warning icon that is explained as “Important information that you should pay attention to.” I’m sure they’d have done the same if there were any difference between the project save menu and the project save shortcut.
10.9.7 TEMPORARY SAVE AND RELOAD PATTERN COMMANDS (Page 40)
The TEMPORARY SAVE PATTERN command will not save the pattern permanently and any changes will be lost if you load another project. If you wish to save your changes permanently, you should use SAVE TO PROJ in the PATTERN MENU. For more information,
please see “15.4 PATTERN MENU” on page 67.
So it is my understanding and experience that [FUNC] + [SETTINGS] is sufficient to reliably save a project, and if anyone is able to demonstrate that there is a difference, this is a major bug and must be reported.
It sounds like this is important to you so for simplicities sake, you must be correct and I’m wrong, so apologies to the OP. Do you have some advice for OP regarding their original post?
In regard to my post
I’m speaking in practical terms, not copying from the manual specifically, and just recalling various posts I’ve read on Elektronauts (God knows I read a lot of posts on here) where people have had similar issues. You may be very well correct, it’s all regarding some bug in the firmware which needs to be or probably has been reported.
This post in particular has some parallels to the original post of this same thread we’re in now, there are other threads on Elektronauts where similar concerns are raised. If you are able to help them, by all means, that would be a great service you’d be doing them.
So if there’s something I’ve missed regarding the first post here, and you can help out, let’s do that for the OP. Otherwise, your ability to quote the manual is exemplary and it would appear everything else is in proper order so I’ll now take my leave and it’s been lovely chatting.
I’ve seen it said here, I think from an Elektron employee, that it’s safe to turn off in a variety of ways. However, I’ve lost work by pulling the power out even when I’m sure I saved the project, more than once, on different devices. It hasn’t happened the same way when using the switch on the unit. IME it’s only safe to turn off at the switches on the units themselves.
Spot on, it is important to me that people understand how things are supposed to work when it comes to making sure their data is safe. It’s also important to me that I understand how the tools I use are working. However, I do understand that not everyone feels that way.
Reading what you claimed made me question my understanding of the way saving projects works on the DT, so I went to the manual to see if I had missed anything, and I’m glad I didn’t. So I simply shared what I learned, and what confirmed my experience with saving projects, so that others who find this thread can save some time and worry.
Yes, I found those as well when I researched this issue, and OP should have, too. The way I see most of these threads: people do report something that happened once to them, with an ambiguous explanation of some of the steps (if we’re lucky), and typically they haven’t even been able to replicate their problem on their own machine.
In these cases, we an only give very vague and general recommendations: understand how it’s supposed to work and apply that knowledge consistently, take some steps (outlined below) to ensure there is no glitch you can fix yourself, be consistent in the way you handle things, and if still fails then, contact support or report a bug.
I’d recommend they reconsider what they have been doing now that I have explained how saving projects is supposed to work, and approach the issue with that knowledge.
That implies that FUNC+YES for saving patters is useless for persisting data in their project, they’d need to FUNC+SETTINGS to save the project, or use the menu for saving individual patterns.
Maybe also consider two additional bits of information: the Digitakt does not automatically save the open project or warn you that there are unsaved changes when you load another project. And after a firmware update, I’ve seen it recommended in the Digitakt 1.50 Bugs thread to always save the projects with the new firmware, before making any changes. (not applicable here, but others with a similar problem who do research will find that thread)
Depending on their need for safety, they might chose to do one of the following:
equipped with a renewed understanding of how things are supposed to work, they just continue making music, and see if they still encounter problems.
start a new project because that is the recommended procedure when something goes wrong that cannot be explained
run a hardware tests (see 16.1 Test Mode, p75 in the manual), and especially test [FUNC] and [SETTINGS] buttons repeatedly just to rule out any problems that are easily detected.
make backups (save a copy of the project every now and then, or even transfer it to the computer)
search the forum and especially check the Digitakt 1.50 Bugs thread to see if something similar already has come up
back up all samples and projects via Transfer, and do a factory reset.
backup all samples and projects and reinstall the firmware
You already recommended some of that . The last two might be a bit over the top, and it appears we already did the searching bit for them
Assuming this was not one of the Models (because these do need a proper power down procedure), but on DT/OT/ST/AR/A4: Did you pull out the power plug out of the device, or the power plug of the PSU out of the socket, or the plug of a strip with several devices connected out of the wall socket?
Anyway, can’t hurt to be consistent and careful with powering up and down when you want to find out what might be causing a problem, until you can rule this out as a source. Here’s a thread that explains how that might be dependent on the power strip.
I actually had this yesterday on my Syntakt. I powered down but only half pressed the button so it went off and then on again and then my last pattern was gone. Reloading the project did fix it though, but don’t know what happened there.
I have high confidence I experienced it with M:C and ST; and low confidence also on one of the Analogs. I’ve also lost work on the Analogs through other routes, which is my recollection is a bit hazy for those.
With the M:C and ST, the losses occurred using a USB-PD power bank, a Birdcord, and pulling the Birdcord out in a hurry to get off a train. It happened more than once with the ST, so I feel confident that’s the pattern. I’ve taken to ensuring I switch off at the switch and not had the problem since.
I accept this is under-detailed and leaves room for the message from Elektron to still be correct.
That sounds like it could be explained by the devices only partly saving the current project on shut down. So straight startup, it reloads the current project and gets part of it, but on reload project you get the last version you deliberately saved.
Something I have noticed that is probably not the case here but could catch someone out is every time a new OS is applied, any previously saved project will need a whole project save if edited even if no new samples have been added. There is some text to say that the project needs resaving if you try to save the pattern but if you are habituated with your saving procedure you may over look it.
With the Models that is expected, they save on power down, they don’t have a switch, but a button that triggers the shutdown sequence. You see that in the display even.
On the ST that should not happen - but obviously it does in your context.
One possible explanation for the behaviour you describe might be that when one is in a hurry to leave a train, one might indadvertedly trigger a change that is saved, like or turning a knob or pressing a button that (de-)activates a step. This scenario would never happen when you switch off a power strip, because then you don’t touch the machine.
If the Digitakt indeed saves on shutdown - which so far I have never seen confirmed by anyone from Elektron.
Edit: @bibenu linked to a conversation that refers to Elektron support explaining that projects indeed are saved on shutdown.
As a software developer, I’d expect it saves every changes to a persistent cache, because that would be a much more robust implementation than relying on a shutdown procedure.
Looking at this teardown (especially the 4th and the last photo) it looks like the switch physically breaks the connection between the PSU and the board, so switching the unit off should be identical to just pulling the plug.
The manual says (on page 3, which nobody ever reads):
For a complete restart of the Digitakt, wait for at least 30 seconds after turning it off before turning it on again.
So maybe there is something about loading the project from cache on power up that can fail, and in that case the project is loaded from disk, and (some or all) unsaved changes might be lost? So it probably can’t hurt yo avoid quick power cycles if you can.
Must admit I was thinking more of the models (also mentioned in this thread) but didn’t I also read somewhere that there’s a capacitor (in the digi boxes) that stores enough energy specifically for doing a write to memory after power-off … sure I read that somewhere ?
Hi Just to jump back in - I followed what @shigginpit suggested in his first replies to me and I have not had a problem since. I basically just go to project menu and save a decent amount while working on the machine and before I shut off. I use Func+nSave to store patterns but I don’t trust it after I shut down.
When I shut down I flip the power switch on the box. Always have done this with my gear. I even disconnect from the PSU after and put the DT on a shelf for the next day.
