AMP ENV lengths / override?

[makosz]

Hello,

i’m exploring the AMP envelope at the moment and can’t exactly achieve what I’m looking for.

First of all I have to say I’m quite puzzled with the choice Elektron made when it comes to the length of the parameters of Amp envelope. Why the longest settings (for example ATK set to 127) take 95 steps? Same with the others. Longest DEC you can set goes for 95 steps. Wonder why it’s not somehow synchronized to the sequencer or at least there is no possibility to do so. For example the setting of 64 could be 32 steps, or longer/shorter. Whatever. Would be more intuitive. But 95? What kind of uneven number is this? Why so? Doesn’t make any sense to me. That is not the point though and yet brings me to the actual question to the more experienced users of A4.

Is there any way to override this and set the AMP envelope parameters to an exact value - like 4 steps attack, or 16 steps decay, without experimenting and setting approximate values?

thanks in advance for any hints

cheers

[avantronica]

But 95? What kind of uneven number is this?

Amp envelope time based values are disconnected from the sequencer

Numbers

So hey uhmm... I will now embark on an endeavor to map out the times for modulator values, that is, the length in milliseconds for stuff like envelope phases... some of them (LFO speed... ) are tempo-synced, others like envelope shapes are not... my idea is to generate test tones being effected by the modulators, record them and measure number of samples.. UNLESS someone has already done this and is willing to share results, or has a better idea (?) why? because computer must know an…

[makosz]

Which is strange to me as A4 is a sequencer based synth. I’m not saying it should be a priority but as the sequencer is a focal point of this machine, I think there should be at least an option to sync the AMP envelope to the sequencer.

Thanks plenty for the ‘numbers’ thread.

[makosz]

right, right. I was checking at 47 BPM…

[makosz]

at 120 BPM and ATK at 64 it takes 11 steps. But same BPM at ATK 127 it takes about 240 steps…
so as avantronica said “Amp envelope time based values are disconnected from the sequencer”. So there is no relation the the sequencer whatsoever.

[makosz]

and LFO speed 1, multiplier x2. Here we go.

[PTSowns]

I might be missing something but are you changing note length on note page to desired amount? Like I normally set note length to 1.0 or 0.5 less than my actual note length and then use amp release as desired

[makosz]

Nope. I see your point and it would be great if it worked that way but it doesn’t (unfortunately). Note length and attack of the envelope are not correlated, meaning if you set the note length to be short (for example 4 steps), the ATK will not be adjusted/synced to the four steps.
So for example if you set note length to 4 steps and long ATK (let’s say 80) and SUS to 127, the attack won’t reach the full SUS level within the 4 steps. Even at very slow tempo (just tried at 34.0)

[PTSowns]

I see what you mean. I was just kind of saying that you can use note length and the amp envelope to achieve your effect you just don’t have a grid or any sort of synced number system, so you have to do it by ear which I understand where you’re coming from. Maybe someone has some sort of LFO trick to make the two sync together?

[tnussb]

The real problem here is how to you map an immensely large value space to just the number from 0 to 127? It doesn’t matter how you do it, it is somehow always lacking.

And it doesn’t matter if you sync it to the BPM or if it is time-based. It will always be some non-linear mapping …

BTW, almost all synths I know of use time-based AMP envelopes, because the envelope is an integral part of how a sound “sounds” and that shouldn’t (normally) change when changing BPM. Or do you want a piano sound completely different when there is more time between the single notes???

[safetyofobjects]

Just thinking out loud: have you tried mapping the Filer env or the additional env to the amp level? Those two env have a gate length setting

[makosz]

what do you mean by “immensely large value space”?

It’s not a piano. It’s a flexible synthesizer with a computer chip, right? Is it not capable to calculate a linear function? The name of the device speaks for itself. A synthesizer - a machine that synthesizes sounds. I expect much more form a synthesis then I do from a fixed piano mechanism. And pretty much in most cases I’m able to synthesize all imaginable sounds I want with a synthesizer. So if I want to make a sound that has an attack that takes exactly four steps, then a decay of exactly four steps and release of exactly four steps I imagine it’s possible with a synthesizer. If not, then I’d love to know why. Are there some technical limitations that prevent it?
I can do it with in my DAW. If for example I want the volume to rise from 0 to max within two sixteenth notes I just draw it in the automation line and I works like a charm. Doesn’t matter to me if it rises linearly of exponentially. At step/note 1 I have volume at 0 and at step/note two I have it at max. It’s even possible to send these values to the A4 from the DAW and then it works this way when the synth and DAW are synced. So why is it not possible within the machine itself?

second. there are a few different envelope shapes one can choose in the A4. Some of them look linear to me. But ok. These are only representations and and the envelope is not linear. That is how it works from what I understand. But apart form that, why are you saying it will ALWAYS be non-linear? Is it technically not possible to make a linear envelope? Again, I can do it in a computer and envelopes in A4 are a result of digital comuptation, right? So why not linear?

[makosz]

No, no really. It’s a very neat feature but If you set ATK for higher value and length to a small one (for example ATK at 80 and ENV length to 4 steps), the SUS level will not be reached within these 4 steps unless you have high BPM.

[tnussb]

what do you mean by “immensely large value space”?

Attack or decay time, for example, has an immensely large value space ranging from milliseconds up to quite long. When you try to fit this range into the 128 available steps of a CC controller like it is done on the Elektron machines you end up with something heavily restricted.

And, sorry, when I made myself not clear enough: the referred piano was just an example that under normal conditions people don’t want the sound of an instrument to change when they change the BPM (the spacing of notes).

About the draw automation line in DAW: I’ll hope you know that this has nothing to do with envelopes. This sends CCs to influence the volume of the sound at exact times (in difference to an envelope which gets triggered and does then it’s “thing” independent of BPM).

To do this within the machine you can plock the volume or use parameter slides (? not sure about that, not used them yet).

[safetyofobjects]

So the lfo should do the trick. That is your sequencer tempo synced tool. You have a linear and an exponential option there, plus offset, plus different trigger behaviors, plus the option to retrig at will using p-locks in the note page
It’s just a synth, it’s not perfect

[tnussb]

So if I want to make a sound that has an attack that takes exactly four steps, then a decay of exactly four steps and release of exactly four steps I imagine it’s possible with a synthesizer. If not, then I’d love to know why. Are there some technical limitations that prevent it?

Technically envelopes are almost everywhere implemented as free running timers with a few start/stop phases. For example the first phase gets triggered by the NoteOn event and then runs as long as you have configured as attack time. There no such feature as scale the configured attack time by a factor taking from the BPM. Of course this could be implemented in software, but most manufacturers don’t care about such a special feature.
But the real restriction is the value range you can use for attack time. You don’t dial in an exact time in milliseconds (or lower), but you have only different 128 values which needs to map to extremely short but also quite long time intervals.

Again, this can be improved by software, but again almost no manufacturer cares about that.

BTW, I don’t think an synced LFO will do the trick. Only when the LFO gets reconfigured after each phase (or multiple one-shot LFOs triggering at different times). First RampUp (Attack), then RampDown with a specific length (Decay), then again RampDown with another length (Release) … and with that complicated setup you still miss the sustain phase

[safetyofobjects]

The LFO has ONE and HLF trigger options, which make it complete a cycle then stop for the former and stop halfway through one cycle for the later. That should give you a sustain phase. And you can also fine tune the cycle with the offset parameter. You have two LFOs, so you should be able to construct an acceptable envelope.
It’s not ideal, but the tools are there to get you close. I guess that’s one of A4/AK strengths, it has a lot of tools, it’s like a modular setup of sorts.

[makosz]

thanks a lot for your input. this is really informative and I appreciate it. I get your arguments and all. forums are sometimes a bit clunky way to discus stuff like this smoothly

About the draw automation line in DAW: I’ll hope you know that this has nothing to do with envelopes. This sends CCs to influence the volume of the sound at exact times (in difference to an envelope which gets triggered and does then it’s “thing” independent of BPM).

yep, I do know that. just wish I had such possibility inside the A4 that would do the same thing as I recreate in a DAW. Obviously the envelopes in DAW synths work the same way and are independent of tempo unless you automate them.

thnks again