ABLETON USERS how you sync MnM without monitoring latency

The Lounge Other Gear
#1

[left]Hello i open this topic to discuss the ways of syncing MnM in the ableton.[/left]

[left]I find out that the latency produced when i was monitoring from the ableton[/left]
[left]then i turn the ableton’s monitoring of and i start monitoring from my audio interface (motu gives monitoring zero latency). As a result now i can use the daw only as a recorder.[/left]

Any better way? To integrade the monomachine to ableton with zero latency of the sequencer and without loosing the monitoring from inside the daw and as a result loose all the plug-in possibilities.

Delay in recordng audio
#2

I typically record all of my stuff beforehand before I do any further processing, other wise my computer runs to shit in no time.

That’s where the 6 outputs come in handy.

#3

Ok guys i have news from the front!

  1. In Ableton the track delay under every track in the session view is the monitoring delay if you adjust it you and make it fits you, you will notice that you here the monitoring as you adjust but the recording stays the same.

So this is not what we are looking for.

  1. In the Preferences > Audio at the Latency section the Driver Error Compensation is the latency that comes from native plugins like the ableton compressor , or the gate, or the limiter e.t.c. You can test it. If you open 10compressors in a channel you will start hearing slaty the latency if you open 20 compressors the latency will be more obvious to your ears.
    So the Driver Error Compensation is fixing this.

  2. The actual way to adjust the monitoring/recording latency is in the
    Preferences > Midi Sync. You go to the output port that feeds your machinedrum or monomachine click on the arrow to open the list
    And you adjust the MIDI Clock Sync Delay.

For my setup the Machinedrum needs -30.5ms and for Monomachine -29.5ms. to be syncing in ableton but not to be synced together there will be always a little drifting in the sync.

I find the Machinedrum easier to sync than the Monomachine with this way.

Now this works perfectly in a setup with only one Drummachine and a couple of Synthesizers. If you want to sync 5 or 6 clocks together it will be harder.

Monomachine and Machinedrum with that way aren’t completely synced together like the way a motu or rme audio interface gives the zero onboard latency.

But! Only the Monomachine or the Machinedrum can be monitoring sync to the Ableton very easy.

I also notice that synthesizers that has internal sequencers like the DSI Evolver or Tetra. Needs others values to be put in the Midi Clock Sync to delay to be correct sync when are playing via midi notes from the pianoroll of the daw or a midi keyboard or when they running their internal sequencer

#4

Nope that’s computer the problem as far as all people told me.
SYNC Elektron between each other is nice (maybe Turbo midi help a bit in this territory for sync between Elktron machines)

Introduce a computer, a soundcard, VST and you will encounter some issue.

That’s why people ON STAGE use PRO MIDI Sync solution. Ok that’s not cheap but it’s really worth the price. So Roland release Roland SBX-1 Sync Box… But the TWO one i TRUST is [innerclocksystems SYNCGEN 2 PRO and [url=“http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html”]s-n-d ACME4](http://www.innerclocksystems.com/new ics sync-gen ii pro.html)

Sync GEN 2 Pro is the most affordable. Computer is not the master, Clock is Master and all is Slaved to an Audio Pulse (very short noise to get a tight sync)

Cheers

#5

Nice article about syncing external in Ableton

#6

results will always be sketchy when using any kind of clock sync with midi over USB from a DAW. I struggled for many years with this issue before I got myself a Syncgen Pro from Innerclock systems. Seems expensive but it is invaluable. The SND is also probably great - they make killer gear - but is exxy.

#9

Thanks for the Rest & Maier Midiclock i will check it

#10

There is also this:

http://www.midiclock.de/midiclock.php

Anyone any experience of this unit?

Nice device, but it’s for syncing hardware only.

The difference with the Sync Gen is that it syncs to audio pulses sent from the DAW/host (using a special plugin they include), and then outputs a stable clock to your hardware.

The device above only outputs MIDI clock from it’s own internal clock, so it would not help with syncing a host.

#11

Yes their arguments are SYNC DAW and Hardware… for the Midiclock box.

But in the owner manual they say exactly what ZenPunkHippy said. You need to deal with Audio Latency and Prefer Pro Midi Interface in the configuration picture.

As far as i know technology from ACME and SYNC GEN is based on Audio pulses which is probably most updated technology… Because Midi Master clock exist since a long time now…

I think SYNC GEN and ACME still the references for me in this territory. But for the price you can test before to invest really in the midi clock to see if it’s ok for you ! But if i release a box like that, i probably made video to show the sync timing… Which they don’t done for now, i search and nothing so… i only think it’s a master midi clock like many others.

Cheers

1 Like
#13

Not sure what the deal is with suggesting MIDI sync products, when the core of the issue is latency that occurs on any digital system.

There is no zero-latency solution if you want to process your inputs with plugins inside your DAW. Anyone who tries to say otherwise does not grasp the fundamental limitations of digital audio - real-time does not exist in a computer, there’s always some latency.

The only way you can get close is by lowering the buffer size of your DAW settings until latency becomes almost un-noticeable (it will still there but may be as low as ~5ms). The downside is all your plugins will now consume far more CPU.

#14

it’s regarding MIDI sync with a lot of equipment like old standards DIN, Modular, Machines and DAW / Computer…

it’s really help to get all that world in better SYNC.

#15

Of course in RECORD you set the lower buffer size you can get without cut signals and you put up progressively you buffer size in playback as far as your plugins number is high progressively in the session of work

#16

I’m not disagreeing that a good product for sync (MIDI /DIN / modular etc…) will help get a good stable setup. Especially if you have a lot of gear to sync up :slight_smile:

However, my understanding is the OP is actually referring to digital audio latency. In particular to the strange scenario where your soundcard monitoring has different latency to the DAW output. For example, on a MOTU you can monitor the input via the soundcard’s software mixer (Cuemix). But this wont let you apply your DAW plugins. If you monitor the sound card’s input section through a DAW you are hit with the A/D and D/A conversion which adds latency - dependent of I/O buffer size, but you can use plugins.

Incidentally i suspect the reason you get zero-latency through the software mixer (Cuemix) is because the MOTU analog inputs send their signal to an analog monitoring which is routed to the analog output stage… Simultaneously the input signal(s) is sent the A/D converter -> DAW -> and back out to D/A converter. And thats where the latency will always hit you, regardless of how good your MIDI sync box is.

1 Like
#18

Sure what you say is relative to all sound cards with direct monitoring activated (possibility)…

Anyway i not have tested a Midi Sync solution so i can’t by experience tell if it’s better to activate direct monitoring according with Daw monitoring in relation with the sync

or if it’s better to not working with direct monitoring and deal with audio compensation (delay) a bit

But i will soon be able to give details on my experience and share it there

#19

Interesting discussion…

I’m considering buying the sync get 2 pro so i can record my monomachine into ableton with everything being line-up nicely. Take the stress out of making music etc.

the only problem is my audio interface:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/focusrite/scarlett-2i4-g4868/
has RCA outputs, I’m using the only 2 TRS for my speakers.
as i understand to connect to the sync gen i need to TRS

So will using a RCA to TRS cable render the timing off? Basically do I need to buy another Audio Interface to with 2 spare TRS outs?

Also is the same true for SND ACME?

Many thanks
Alex

#20

Audio cables have no effect on timing at all. No worries.

#21

Ive experimented with various sync methods, i found that Lives MIDI clock was actually pretty tight after an initial lag on starting the transport. The clock compensation has a problem though when you add any external effects or instruments, the clock sync doesnt adjust in response to the added latencies, so i found myself constantly adjusting the clock delay.
Expert sleepers stuff gives good tight clock, but since it uses audio, any dropouts due to cpu spikes can cause timing errors or sometimes sync is lost and the mono stops. Pretty rare though, and being able to swing the clock is pretty sweet.

#22

So my sync-gen 2 arrived. To report I’m really happy with it - takes the stress out of adjusting audio clips etc. improves work flow, which is great.

I can now can happily combine ableton instruments and effects with the mnm whilst jamming.

for info i connect the sync-gen to midi-thru and use the midi in so that i can still play the mnm whilst its being triggered by the sync-gen. which i find pretty cool. i can even record in patterns live, whilst a loop is playing.

#23

edit - actually the sync works better when connected to the midi out of the mnm…

is there away of play notes through a midi controller, by connecting to the midi out or midi thru of the mnm?? im guessing not…

#24

I found out that ableton sync works pretty well with elektron stuff. i haven’t tried it with actual ableton, or an actual MM, but I have my octatrack synced up nice and tight with patterning on ipad the other day using an intermediate sync to clock app.