Unwanted pattern/project saving with unwanted sound/sample changes (Midi issue)

Hi,
I am running Digitakt on OS 1.11 Beta and I have experienced following problem with unwanted sound/sample changes and followed by unwanted pattern/project saving.
I had nearly ready 15-pattern song with many sound locks and parameter locks used and I wanted to add some separate synth track with melody (outside of Digitakt) on my Moog Subsequent 32 CV. Sub32 was connected to DT via midi in and mini out cables and Midi Sync on DT was set to Clock Send, Prog Channel Receive (this was probably initializing the problem) and Prog CH Send. No computer was connected. On DT Channels Track 1 was set to Midi channel 1 (another mistake), all others were off. On Sub32 Midi channel 1 was set for In and Out.
I was jamming on Sub32 while playing on DT various patterns (only in play mode, nor record, no additional sound modifications during playback on DT). Suddenly I started to hear unrecorded sounds and unwanted samples from my DT, while playing on certain keys on Sub 32. After some time I started to worry about my project as this has happened to me already few days ago, and I lost some part of previously recorded work. So, I stopped jamming and I found that Midi Sync Prog Channel Receive was On, so I have disabled it. I have made sure that I was not saving any pattern and I was sure that I have not saved the project… As the patterns after reloading were still playing strange sounds/samples at the timepoints where my original sounds were stored, I have decided to switch off my DT, disconnect all midi cables, disconnect power cable and restart DT again.
It was my big surprise that even without manual saving of any pattern and without manual saving of the project ALL UNWANTED CHANGES REMAINED SAVED. Unwanted changes on the Track 1 counted to: change of the samples used on Track 1, Velocity changes, Volume changes, Track Level changes (most of other set parameters stayed unchanged).
I assume that this is a bug, as any change in the project must be saved first to appear again after reloading the project in a new session.
As unfortunately I have not yet back-up this project on computer, it took me 4-5 hours to restore the song (compering sound of saved draft wav file) and the result was not the same (and good) as initial song…
Has anybody experienced similar issue?

Did you reload the project or just turn the DT off and then on again? I only ask cause in your description you never state you reloaded a previously saved version of the project. Turning the dt off and then on does not reset the project to its previously saved state.

Thanks, this is good point, I didn’t know that reloading project could help… I am still quite new in using DT… What I did before switching DT off, was reloading patterns - and they still had all errors saved… What I understood from various sources/forums, that turning off DT will cause no-save of previous changes, so I was hoping that restart can help…

I would try reloading the project.

Turning off the dt it will turn back on to the state It was in when turned off, all the elektron boxes do this I believe.

On the dt Reload pattern, reloads the pattern from a temporary save state and if they have not been saved to that temporary save state previously, there is no previous state to revert them to.

Thanks again, this is something I could not find in DT manual (it is still all the time in front of me…)
I did not know that the same project can be reloaded once it is already loaded and not saved…
“15.1.1 LOAD PROJECT
Load Project opens a project selection screen where you can choose a project to load. Note that the active project will not be saved before loading the new project so remember to save the active project first.”

It does not say that you cannot load the currently active project. Only that when doing so it does not auto save the project. This is super helpful for situations like yours where things get messed up and the project needs to be reloaded to its earlier state.

1 Like

This is little bit worrying me: “Turning off the dt it will turn back on to the state It was in when turned off, all the elektron boxes do this I believe.” Turning DT off means “autosave”, or is there continuous autosaving? I do not see any saving procedure, while turning DT off, just black screen…
So, basically all the time when I play ready song, making some playback changes (not recorded), I should reload the project again, just to be sure that I will start the song as it was initially intended and saved?

No it does not auto save. It remains in the same state as it was when switched off, almost like the machine was not switched off.
A project always needs to be manually saved for changes to be permanent.

And, if that is the state you need your project in, yes you should reload it without saving to return it to its original state.

2 Likes

You need to save the project at some point and then you can reload it. The projects have an active state which exists in RAM and retains changes even after powering down and on again. This is the active state of the project and is not saved to the +drive, by saving you create a saved version which then can be reloaded if you don’t like where you’ve gone on the active state… If you’ve made a bunch of changes since you last saved and load another project without saving, those changes will be lost.

To resolve your unwanted midi issues head to the port config menu and disable receive notes and receive cc. I highly advise not being attached to a specific outcome in the first week or few with the device, just have fun and try to learn it. Your bound to make mistakes at first but pretty soon the flow of the device will make more sense and you can move forward…

2 Likes

Almost no “save” operation (besides “save project”) really writes to the +drive. They just modify the active state in RAM.

For example: Save/reload pattern works like clipboard operations on Windows/Mac/Linux. They don’t modify the +drive. “Reload” won’t go to the +drive and looks what’s saved there. It just examines the clipboard for a previous version.

When reloading a pattern won’t work, that only means that there is no previous version of it in RAM. But “load project” brings you back to the state where you’ve executed “save project” the last time.

I really wonder why this concept of almost-all-operations-are-done-in-RAM-only is not explained in more details in the manuals, because it is quite essential to know when SAVE really means “saved to the +drive” (recoverable after a reset).

BTW: Before someone asks, why: I think it’s to keep the wear level of the +drive low and because saving to +drive is also a quite slow operation which may interfere with realtime audio.

The other save operations (besides “save project”) that writes directly to the +drive are when you select a location on the +drive to save to (for example: when saving a sample you’ve just recorded to a specific location and not just only to a sample slot).

The above explanations should hold true for all Elektron devices, but to be sure, please test this behaviour on your own machines (do a “load project” and see what’s left from a previous save operation). Better safe than sorry, isn’t it?

1 Like

Thanks all for your input and comments! It is really appreciated!
It is really very tricky and one must be very careful when saving project and patterns…
To summarize if I understand everything correctly, I give one example:

New project has 3 patterns, which was saved as “Project Save” yesterday.
Today I want to make some modifications on all 3 patterns.
At the end of session I am absolutely not happy with my modifications done on Pattern 1 and Pattern 2, but modifications on Pattern 3 are excellent and I want to save only this pattern to my project.
If I hit “Save Project” at this stage (and before this Pattern 3 was saved with Save Pattern), then also Pattern 1 and Pattern 2 (with bad unwanted modifications) will be saved to project as well.

So, to avoid this I should start my session like this:

  1. Turn on DT with current project
  2. Open Pattern 1, Pattern 2 and Pattern 3 and each time hit Save Pattern to save their initial state to RAM.
  3. Work on my project and make modifications on all 3 patterns.
  4. Since I don’t want to keep modifications on Pattern 1 and Pattern 2, I push Reload Pattern to reload their initial state from the beginning of session.
  5. Modifications on Pattern 3 are perfect, so I hit Save Pattern on Pattern 3.
  6. Finally I hit Save Project, to save project with modified Pattern 3 only.

Please, correct me if I am wrong…

You should save pattern 3 to project using the lefthand imp/expot button, this will save only the pattern selected to the project . You would then either reload the project to clear the other patterns or func+no to return them to the temp save point (if you have made one) or the original save point if you hav’nt.
The best idea imo is to temp save anything you like the sound of and as soon as you know you want to keep it,save it to project. Saving the whole project in one go has its uses but if you are not careful you will save things in states that cant be undone.

2 Likes

To me this makes sense as a hierarchy of saving levels, project being the highest level. For example on AR if I save my project before I save some kits when I reload the project the kits don’t have those changes, because I saved the project before saving kits, not after. If I save the kits then save the project the project is saved with the saved kits. I like the way this works…

At least one thing could be emphasized in DT manual: that the sound modifications (parameters) are stored on ongoing basis in RAM in PLAY mode and reloaded after DT is turned on after turning off even without saving…

I thought that only those changes, which are recorded with RECORD button on (either in Grid mode or in Live recording mode) and subsequently were saved in Pattern and in Project, are really saved and appear after device is turned on again.

I know that everything this may be clear to experienced Elektron users, as this approach may be common in all devices. But for new user it is quite unclear (and I have tried to read manual carefully and watched nearly all good video tutorials).
I do not see many parallels with saving files in computers (PC or MAC), as there I can have more clear control, what will be saved and what can be undone. Furthermore DT has many (useful) shortcuts, but if you hit them by mistake (which can easily happen, when trying to do things quickly), it can lead to completely unwanted behavior…

Elektrons have a fascinating way of at first seeming backwards and just messed up how things work. After some time though the logic starts to click more and more until it actually starts seeming like a very well thought out, highly functional, and flexible way to go… That’s what happened to me anyway… Things that didn’t make sense to me at first later on seem brilliant…

Nothing is actually saved when turning the machine off. You will lose valuable work on projects if you think anything is auto saved when the machine is turned off.

If you must compare it to a computer, turning the dt off is like putting your computer to sleep. When you turn it back on it will awaken in the same state is was when it was turned off.

Also review page 14 of the digitakt manual. Most of what’s been explained came from there. Including the behavior of the machine when switched off and on.

1 Like

It could be emphasized and more clear but it’s pretty much the first thing in the manual after the architecture diagram and a blip about the plus drive…

Then this later:

1 Like

IMHO it’s very missleading how Elektron uses the word “save”, because everyone and my grandma associates “save” with writing to the disc/+drive (which is not the case unless you use “save project”). The none volatile RAM (keeps state when main power is off) is a nice feature, but when the machine crashes or the battery fails or you just switch to another project thinking you had called save pattern previously and that’s enough, bad news will await you.

1 Like

Very first page of DT Manual (before Table of Content):
“RESTART
• For a complete restart of the Digitakt, wait for at least 30 seconds after turning it off before turning it on again.”

So, everybody can assume that after turning Digitakt off nothing stays in RAM and after the device is turned on again the last opened project is reloaded from the last (manually) saved status… This, what I understand, restart is…

Elektron could create in manual completely separate chapter to explain and summarize all types of savings of projects, patterns, tracks, sequencer, etc…

Sorry, no. The RAM holds its content. It is NVRAM, a special kind of RAM, which is powered by a battery when main power is off. There is no reload phase. Everything is there as you left it.

The 30 seconds hint is for parts of the electronics to discharge (otherwise it may not turn on correctly). Just search the forum for threads about power-up problems.

When you really want to clear the RAM you can perform an EMPTY RESET (accessible via the startup menu when holding [FUNC] while turning the machine on).

1 Like