Touch Screen Interfaces, and to a lesser degree, Large Screens

If it’s called for it’s fine. If it’s just there to replace a computer screen with the data it shows, no, stop. Knobs over touchscreen for general control any day. Although the NI Touch Strips are a really good alternative to motorised faders and they’re ultra sensitive.

Patterning on iOS works great with touchscreen as do some of those sampling apps. I guess it all comes down to the implementation and the context.

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I’m suspicious of touch screens, cos I’m a grumpy old man. But seriously- I think concerns about longevity of the tech are fair. Stuff like LEDs and potentiometers are proven over the long term.

Touch screens also provide zero physical feedback, they’re kind of the worst controller possible way in that sense.

And even though I’m sometimes tempted by the amazing possibilities offered on eg an IPad, my experience suggests that everything becomes obsolete very quickly on these interfaces. There’s little chance that everything will be running well in two years, let alone 20. Like I said, grumpy old man.

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I like 'em, so there. :stuck_out_tongue:

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This is great.

It reminds when multi-touch was being developed and you used to see those old research videos of table top touch surfaces, before Apple took it all and wizzed it up into the iPhone.

I guess musical controllers is a bit more of a niche field, but the thing in that video is something I could get behind. Perhaps once it moves out of its researchy phase and into the more industrially designed version, could be very interesting. Looks awesome. You could see this as a beginning phase of the mutant worlds of hardware knob meets touch screen. Dig it.

Push is basically this, albeit with one row and a bunch of menu diving.

I personally would love to see more touch capacitive control on hardware, just a light to the touch way of flicking controls, i think it’d really pick up the speed of things.

drools

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we are 3-dimensional beings. evolution has freed up our hands and our hands have developed extraordinary tactility and fine control over a long long time. we are very good with our hands (playing instruments for example) and we don’t have to think (actively) to use them. it’s enjoyable.

a touch interface is not a good interface for humans, both in the sense that we loose one dimension (2-dimensional interface) and we loose muscle memory (you have to use your eyes and think before touching that screen). i would further say it’s not enjoyable to use touch interfaces at all because of this. they are a compromise for when you want to stuff lots of functions into a small area. smartphones are a good candidate, but musical instruments not so much.

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I also dont like touch screens at all. I think there is something at play here about how things “should” interface. Like a hi-fi set has physical volume dials, sliders and buttons. This is for me the natural way to electronically interact with sound. It puts the body and mind in a congruent mindset. I want that physical feedback, i like clicky computer keyboards too. It has to do with style as well, which also falls under “congruency”.

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Seriously it’s a matter of preference, some of you seem to just make up pseudoscience to convince your self that touch screens are universally bad. :joy: :rofl:

There are of course bad mechanical/physical interfaces which are a compromise as well. There are plenty of instruments and controllers with physical/mechanical UI that lacks in terms of precision, speed, build, and tactile feedback.

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I’ve been using touch screens well before smart phones even became a thing for operating printing machines… they are great for certain things but suck at other things… fingers are to fat to be precise at editing audio and ends up being slower

same here.
either proper tactile feedback or no tactile interaction at all, like D-Beam or theremin.

touchscreen is something inbetween — worst of 2 worlds

what do you mean ? the theory about muscle memory, and millions of years of development of fine intramuscular coordination of our fingers etc. ? or the fact manipulating 3d objects is more enjoyable than gazing at 2d surface ? :wink:

You do realise muscle memory exist for all movements right ? Even the movements you do on your phones touch screen.

The notion that just because some of have fingers like chorizo’s and can’t be precise, it’s impossible for anyone to be precise on a touchscreen is flawed.

Again it’s a matter of preference and not a universal fact, both has their place and strength/weaknesses.

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i don’t know that much details how it went for millions years of evolution, but muscle memory really is not applicable to touchscreens in any way.

and yes, what’s most annoying is the fact that you have to stare at the screen to perform even the simplest operations.

this all sucks when performing live. add that you always have to have perfectly dry fingers to make touchscreen operation more or less reliable.

no,no, i agree with you on that, I was replaying @Fotopaul , Muscle memory is a form of unconscious long term memory, created for certain task, like dancing, playing instruments, or martial arts. .
And the intramuscular coordination, yes, it is needed for touchscreens, but poking or sliding with your finger has very little to do with complexity of instrument playing. It is always the same oversimplified movement, sliding your finger over the screen on your phone is the same as sliding it on your “instrument”. Calling it muscle memory is stretching the term a little. :slight_smile:

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Little digression, my little nice, she is 2y now, she was able to poke the touchscreen before she could use the spoon properly. or put on her shoes herself. i think she still cant put on her shoes, i am not sure, but she always want me to do it! :smiley:

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I have come to the conclusion that I don’t like touchscreens or big colourful displays and also to a lesser degree RGB LEDs (and I’ll always hate blue LEDs)

Touchscreens don’t do a good job of precision altering of parameters, they get messy, they act up, they are somewhat fragile and I don’t think they are made to last beyond 10 years - all in my experience of using them.

I much prefer a monochrome display and simple LEDs to display at a glance information, and a dedicated persistent control surface, be that knobs, sliders, buttons or switches, or a combination of those.

For me user interface is one of the most important things, and can be a deciding factor of if I will enjoy using a device or not.

I think that sometimes technology drives user interface, capacitive touch screens came along and effectively rendered resistive touchscreens obsolete, but actually I prefer resistive touchscreens with a stylus as they offer more precision and seem to be more reliable in the longterm. Capacitive touchscreens with a stylus still don’t offer the same level of precision IMHO.

Of course the software is a key component in regard to precision/accuracy, and some devices which have the option to control parameters additionally with encoders negate some of the precision issues, but then why bother with the touchscreen in the first place?

I doubt I’ll buy any more touchscreen instruments, unless the UI is really good, but even then I’d prefer that they were not used.

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I’d rather use a touch screen for uncommonly changing things than menu diving. And they are far better at conveying information than a lil 2x20 matrix.

Good design is good design though, touchscreen shouldn’t mater. If you make a device that needs a touch screen to do filter sweeps, you probably don’t make music. I personally don’t mess with lfos after I set them up, so having them on screen is good. Piano rolls are only good with a mouse (sorry fantom my love and you too mpc).

I really like the knobs next to the screen on iridium. It’s a good compromise. And when you do have to menu dive (and thus must use your eyes anyway) I find the screen to be way better than scrolling through a list on a display like DT. And you still have muscle memory for that (eye hand coordination can still benefit from muscle memory).

I think the key is the screen (touch or not) must enhance the experience not just be a gimmick. We can use an adsr without visual feedback but it’s harder to build a mental representation of what you’re doing with four knob positions vs a display.

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While I don’t have a problem using touch screens in general but they are a deterring factor in music gear. I worry about their longevity. Just one more complex thing that can easily break or have poor software integration.
They’re a total drag while playing live too. You’re in a very dark room (usually) and needing to watch the crowd (since the crowd/performer interaction needs to be reciprocal) and you’re forced to spend far too much time looking at your gear. With a touchscreen your gear is so much brighter than the rest of the room that your eyes have to adjust every time you look up. It creates a disconnect between you and the crowd. For me at least.
Not everything needs much of a screen. My korg er1 has a three character lcd and I’ve never wished it had a bigger screen in the nearly two decades I’ve had it. Model cycles has the most complex screen of any piece of gear I currently use and it’s great. My phone has a nice touchscreen and it really enables it’s functionality but I wouldn’t perform live with it and I don’t expect to get 20 years of use from it. Different tech for different gear. I do wish my evolver had a slightly bigger screen but that’s about it.

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Try doing intricate operations on a touchscreen while looking away.

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Define intricate and give an example of the same action with a knob.

Kind of interesting arguments and while certainly agree that physical quality controls are hard to beat there are many instances where it’s not practical nor faster, but of course there are areas where it’s faster and more enjoyable as well.

The one-sided argument here that touch controls are not good for music is a personal preference, not a fact.

So let’s talk about some of the dealbreakers

Eyes on the screen:
For live performing sure, in that situation, you do want to minimize the need to look at your hands. But let’s not kid ourselves, looking down at your hands to see what you’re doing isn’t exactly unheard of when it comes to live performance in electronic music… :slight_smile:

Also, what’s the difference to look at the small screen turning a knob/slider and look at the larger screen and touching it. In terms of being occupied by a screen, none.

On my Squarp Pyramid, I can use a touchpad to control parameters but I can also assign the same to an encoder, for any precision with both requires me to look at the tiny screen to see the data value.

Also to assume everything needs to be suited for live performance is as logical as to think every device you have needs to be able to run on battery power.

Precision:
The argument of the need for precision and the touchscreens lack thereof.

My reference (apart from the usual apple touch and smartphones, and touch computers like the Surface Pro) is working with a system that has touch controls for controlling stepper motors that has a precision of 2um (0.002 millimeters) often controlling camera gear that cost thousands of dollars.

When it comes to music gear my reference is very limited to touch controls since the only device I have that has a touch screen is the BlackBox and soon the EssenceFM. (Apart from the Ipad apps etc)

I was skeptical before getting it , and specifically towards the touch screen. But to my surprise, the response and ease of use exceeded that of my iPad. Very responsive and no need for Dubbel tapping or accidental taps.

It simply works and it works well. Now to get an equivalent hardware UI would require a lot more space and quite a few buttons and encoders to avoid menu diving.

Funny enough the encoders which feel awesome well dampened is very sensitive so doing precise adjustment takes some time to get used to, its very easy to overshoot your target.

We could also argue for the need for precision, as often the knobs/slider are just dialed to taste and ear.

My argument still stands, that a well-implemented touch system offers very fine control, that’s from the first-hand experience with motion control systems that has far higher requirements for precision than most electronic instruments.

Finally just because the controls are physical/mechanical doesn’t mean they are good or precise for that matter, plenty of instruments who has questionable quality of it’s encoders and pads. Just as every touchscreen implementations isn’t poor and lack precision.

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ok how about something simple like pushing a few buttons? I couldn’t write my name on a tablet without looking if my life depended on it. But I’m perfectly fine never looking at my keyboard while I’m typing.

I’ve got a Digitone and I push buttons all the time while keeping my eyes on something different. I couldn’t do that with a touch screen. I actually wish synth and gear makers added in more subtle tactile features to all the various buttons and other controls to make them even easier to use without looking.

On a personal note, I’ve never enjoyed the sensation of using a touch interface, even if it works well. Something about tapping and sweeping my fingertips on the glass surface irritates my skin, but maybe that’s just me.

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