On a serious note, I would say this is pretty improvised. Making loops on the fly and using the looper to structure the arrangement.
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It is indeed. And you can see by the amount of movements he makes he’s a freaking king at that. Karenn (Blawan and pariah ) also play mostly fully improvised although they have stated they started adding prepared loops sometimes as well after a while. But I think that is kind of the key when talking about improvisation in electronic music. It’s more conceptual than it is when talking about improvising on a guitar for example.
I think, when a pattern is fully created beforehand or for the most part, meaning carefully mixed, elements working together in detail etc, but the arrangement is not, that you could say that the arrangement of said pattern is performed and improvised. Where it becomes a bit tricky is, if you’ve played that pattern during 20 gigs, is the arrangement still improvised? It becomes practice and probably a repetition of steps in live arranging that work well for that pattern.
Another method would be to not sequence anything live, have synth patterns prepared, maybe a few texture or percussion loops, but without any prepared structure or combination of those elements. There is no plan beforehand but there is definitely a lot of preparation. It’s improvised ? In a way it is isn’t it ?
Another method could be sequencing a lot of elements live, even synth lines, but also have a few synth patterns and loops prepared before hand to throw in there to keep things going or get inspired or create a new combination of rhythms on the spot etc.
To me something stops being improvised when it’s too prepared. So it becomes more like a band performing a track on their album.
To give an example of my own noodles on YouTube where I jam a track. Those are production and patterns that are designed and performed. The arrangement is not 100% at all, nor prepared or solidified to the measure. A lot of the parameter tweaks are just me flowing. But most of the time the overall direction is quite clear. I would not call this improvisation myself and thus I do not post these things in this topic.
Another example is a new project I’ve been working on that I’d definitely call improvised as there is no planned direction at all and most of it is sequenced on the spot. Combined with texture loops, some atmospheres and synth lines. Either as extra layers or hooks whenever I feel like adding them. So there are elements that are prepared but they are completely without context and on their own. That falls under improvisation imho.
To circle back to the improvising guitarist: they have no planned direction but they definitely tap from a library of memorized finger patterns to keep a flow going which can result in something completely new. It’s the interplay between the “preparation” and the unknowing that makes something improvisation imho. One always taps from previous experiences and knowledge and you could say that that is a form of preparation as well.
Having said that, different from a 5 minute guitar solo, I think this whole topic is not really suited for 5 minute tracks / excerpts / jams, however you want to call them, because it’s not really a performance without direction. The direction might have been added afterwards, by cutting it from a longer improvisation session, but that is still a way of applying a direction to something. At least that’s what I think anyway :). Not a dig to anyone posting these and definitely not meant to “gatekeep”. It’s just an opinion.
In my humble view, for it to be improvisation the piece of music needs to be able to grow and go places and we as a listener need to get the chance to follow that journey and feel the danger. Including the “mistakes”, happy accidents, missteps, rough edges and then the moments where things come together in a beautiful way.
/late night brain dump
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Sounds brutal ! I like it. Didnt read the full thread and the drama, maybe you track was just too polished (and club ready), but that is what we all should aim for. In the sequencing world - the electron sequencer is made for us, to enter notes before hand - yes, it could be enterd while the track is running, but that is somewhat abstract - because its nearly impossible to create 8-20 tracks in real time.
Maybe a live keyboard is considerd more live, and i have seen videos of guys, actually playing classic trance tracks, but that is in my opinion asked a bit much - is the improvisation aspect here only a pure instrumental one? And can you play this fast appreggios, one handed, while automating the sounds ? I havent seen a interface for that yet.
For me what you made is quiete a cool track, polished, and improvised at least to my concern. (I could clearly see that the sounds alterd, while you played - it was not press play and songmode.)
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Thank you! 
That is also my goal. To play and improvise live sets that are completely club-ready. I’ve been working on that for a few years now. Some tracks are just very dynamic thanks to an LFO. Sometimes I have to turn more knobs, sometimes less. I can turn on the modular system and just start jamming without any preparation and I don’t know what’s coming out of the rack but apparently I’m not really improvising anyway. 
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Well i know that its hard work to get it to such a polished level, and we are doing it with this machines not for a classical audience either, i am fine with a DJ just changing tracks, everything beyond that is very hard in my opinion, and requires dedication. Dont be discouraged - i hope to see more of your jams posted here, they are adding much to the conversation, and show what is possible. I also watched some of your modular stuff, which is also very entertaining.
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Thank you for the kind words! 
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I quiete like his set, but you see the modules, with the wandering rings ? That is a euclidian rythms, to generate the pulses /notes. Its also in the Video i posted above with the Cloud9 guy, he uses that with an endorphines sequencer, and is multiplying the signals, its a very clever setup - and a thing that enables, to shift the music fast. So to add to this discussion - its maybe a good idea to evaluate the methods to come up with fast sequencing changes.
Hé actually explains in the video that he had the eucleadean rhythms connected to the hihat to create hihat variety. However he tells he ended up not using it ;). Rings is adding a subtle layer to the kick. Not used for melodic parts. You can actually see how he has connected everything if you look carefully.
He uses metropolis (one osc) and the rest is sequenced with a sequencer that is in front of him, live. He then uses knob movements to create “modulations” and records the anudio into the looper, turns down volume of original sound, turn up volume of another sound , moves knobs, record loop and so on to add layers.
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As long as it follows forum rules, he can post whatever he wants.
Before posting music to this thread, please submit your application to your nearest CIA (Certifying Improvisation Agent) office for approval.
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I just remembered this video I’ve watched long ago, Speedy J and Chris Liebing doing a traktor/ableton session, in the description of the video it specifically says:
8 decks, 2 x maschine, 2 x ableton improv…
it’s definitely not true that Ableton Live or any other loop based material can’t be used as improvisation, the video of two giants improvising with pre-recorded, pre-prepared, pre-mastered, pre-whatever loops:
and even in the Blawan video posted with the interview, he specifically mentions one important part when talking about live sound manipulation of his setup:
“there’s a human element to it” and that’s what makes something improvised for me personally…
and I would definitely call this video’s session an improvisation even though the material is prepared
also, Monolake, aka Robert Henke, plays live and improvised sets with Live, that’s how Push was born actually
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Lots of fun discussion.
A DJ, who selects a large number of tracks beforehand, maybe 1000s, then plays a smaller number of them in an improvised order, playing only small sections or loops of each track, with FX, filters etc., all chosen on the fly, controlled live by his 2 hands on his equipment. Is this improvised techno?
Again, it doesn’t really matter, perhaps it only matters to the performer. So in that regard, if what you consider is improvising then who gives a shit what anyone else says? Am I more impressed by someone who makes everything from scratch? Probably, but not if it sounds crap, which at the end of the day is all that really matters.
A final random musing, I see mention a lot of people wanting to make club ready and polished tracks. I’m not sure what that really means, but personally, if I wanted to do that, I would make them beforehand and play them in their finished form. To me, club ready and polished is not what I think of when I think of improvisation, and a few others seem to agree with me.
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great question, a dj aspect is a whole different level but I’d say yes, I’ve been watching lots of DVS1 interviews lately and you know this man creates whole new tracks out of 3/4 existing tracks, he doesn’t have a modular as a sound source, his sound source is vinyl/other dj media, but the guy creates tracks on-the-fly without preparation, he is playing it like new material, so I’d say his act is improvised and live techno.
you could say that in Blawan case, and he talks about this in the interview posted, his modular is a sound source which he loops with a looper, so, basically same DJ technique to create repetition/patterns/arrangement over time, but his sound source is oscillators/filters and not existing tracks/loops/clips.
impressed for sure!
but I’m equally impressed by any human element that makes something not just sound good as a sound source but over time as well, so if a person knows how to progress his material over time I’m equally impressed.
as long as the person puts his personal artistic element into the recording - I call it improvised and if it sounds good I’m impressed.
I’m not that impressed by people who push PLAY and air-guitar a mixer or something, btw there’s a video somewhere of Deadmaus talking about whole pre-recorded DJ sets, that huge festivals don’t allow ANY sort of improvisation and the artists only push the play button on a fully pre-recorded set, now that is some bullshit!
found it:
I will (cautiously) add this interview with DVS1 that really resonates with me and related to this topic and how a DJ can also be improvised techno, there are questions in there how does he play 8-10 hours Berghain sets, there’s NO WAY you can pre-record or prepare 8 hours set, so the dude is improvising, but his media is vinyl/decks not synths, doesn’t make it not improvised imho, it’s just a different media… really worth a watch, this guy is real deal, he talks a lot how he approaches his performance and how his artistic expression translates IRL
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I agree - but I also find it interesting to share and compare our views on this.
Personally, I think a good perspective mentioned by only a few posts above concerns the risk-taking aspect. In my view, much of the interest of an improvised performance comes from creation in the spirit of the moment, from the fact that things can go wrong, and from the ability to feel a bit of the creative process itself.
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Agree. Surgeon has talked about how his set often falls apart and he’s happy for it to do that and so are the audience.
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Well this thread has really heated up eh, glad to see people discussing and sorting out their difference of opinions.
Tension and resolve - very apt and in the spirit of the thread
My interpretation of improvised techno has to have some unknowns, take a few risks and make some mistakes even, but then shape the mistakes so that something new & hopefullycoherent emerges. Obviously no one wants to listen to you making big clangers , they want big bangers .
Using prepared sounds, patterns, loops is totally fine….use them to support whatever else is going or as a jumping off point when the moment takes you change them in anyway you can. Also enjoy and feel what you’re doing, for me and for improvisation to be real you have to be part of the feedback loop in listening and reacting and making changes. Knowing your set-up and gear is important of this…as soon as you have an idea you can make it happen through muscle memory/practice and you can surprise yourself and listeners and that’s the pay off for me. Maybe it’s more of a philosophy too, to each their own.
On the flip side of that, watching Stoor (which I do love, who doesn’t) with 5 or 6 renowned artists….I don’t see much risk taking/mistakes…moves are more considereed and safe, that’s probably just experience though and maybe not wanting to let the audience & the rest of side down. So Context is a factor too, mucking about at home and posting on YouTube you can afford to be more risky and playful, maybe in a small club too, with a like minded audience.
In Summary, improvisation should always be changing/evolving/iterating….if not, it gets stale, to predictable & practiced
Anyway, love this thread. Keep on keeping on people
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I think a key thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that the gear you are using dictates to an extent where on the improv scale you can practically be operating. My 4 voice multitimbral PreenFM2 is a nightmare to even consider sound designing with on the fly without extensive setup. Do I still use it when ‘improvising’? Absolutely!
I prepare a ‘combo’ of four patches combined together into a set which I assign via midi CCs to a pattern in my Digitakt live techno project. I set up the four ‘performance’ macros as my E-H encoders on the DT, and have them routed to the ‘Index of Modulation’ values of whatever patch they are pointing at, allowing me a wide range of sound options on the fly. So I have a fixed starting point with those voices, and a range of which to select (it’s only practical to use one or two voices on the fly) but it certainly allows me to go in unexpected directions.
My Quadrantid Swarm is far closer to what I think of when I think of an improvised voice in techno, where I can move the pots quickly into a starting point and then use the whole instrument to go wherever I fancy. But really, is there any difference between me knowing a decent starting point and quickly twisting a few pots and doing a few patches to get there compared to loading a starting point combo on the Preen?
On my DT, my live template has a bunch of patterns with most of the tracks already populated with sounds, but with only one or two basic sequences, usually a kick plus one other element, so I have something to switch to when I want to transition. Obviously I don’t want to move to silence in a progression, and I don’t currently use a looper, so ideally I want something to be there when I get there, and a four on the floor kick, or a simple variation, gives a starting point to quickly sequence away from.
I guess the question is one of established (or in this case unestablished) idiom. If you are interested in this area, I recommend Derek Bailey’s book called Improvisation in which he has conversations with various professional musicians from various disparate fields about how improvisation functions within the traditions and idiom which they are a part of. This includes Baroque music, Indian classical music, prog, Jazz, modern composition, etc. I play the recorder family of instruments, mostly for early music - Baroque, and I am called on to improvise whenever I play a Handel or Telemann sonata! But what improvising means in that context is very different to what a sitar player would consider improvisation in a free section of a Raga.
I think it’s both important to note that:
if you specify that something is an improvisation and then do a ‘performance’ of a mostly pre sequenced song with a few modulation changes and some on the fly variation, you should expect push back from people who do differently, and take a more strict view of what improvisation entails, and;
if you fully improvise, you can expect to be met with bewilderment by the majority of the electronic music audience with expectations aligned to what they hear commercially released.
I don’t care either way, but I think it’s perfectly possible to say in a few words what you are doing when you post a video or audio recording, and I think the outcome is best evaluated in this context.
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With STOOR I wouldn’t call it safe. It has to do with how Speedy J is the “conductor” as it were and mixes the things he gets from the other artists. If someone else has something cool going he’ll mix that in and fade something else out for example. (As far as I know, and not constantly as sometimes some performers step back and take a break so then it’s all just what you hear is what you get). That way it definitely becomes more consistent sounding that is certain. And yeah these are high level techno producers performing so there’s that 
PS. There were definitely moments that were a bit messy or going on for too long but yeah both those 7 hour sets are insanely impressive.
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Absolutely, and the results often sound marvellous. I think it’s clear that the Stay at Home sessions that are duo encounters are much more free and open in terms of improvisation, while any of the sessions with more people are more conducted and controlled by necessity. My favourite of the bunch that I have heard so far is the second duo with Surgeon where he is using a Q Swarm and a Lyra to make these subtle and shifting textures, but it’s a far cry from what most people would consider techno! It seems to me that the more people that are playing, the more likely the sound will gravitate around ‘traditional’ techno grooves, and the fewer allows more space for quieter exploration.
I like both approaches.
Edit: the Stoor channel on youtube has been almost my only source of listening for the last few months, after stumbling across one of the more recent marathon live sets with Surgeon, Karenn and JakoJako. I have found is a great source of inspiration.
Edit 2: Another really important thing to consider when it comes to electronic music improvisation is time scale, and how changing the time scale in which you operate can massively alter the effect. I’m personally quite happy operating and listening both in a 2-6 minute time scale with tight and constant change, or a 3 hour time scale in which things can stretch out and develop, or just groove, for extended periods of time.
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Ah yes, nicely phrased 
I guess I meant he is a sort of safety net between the artists and the audience. Of course he is much more than a safety net, a curator of fine sounds
Just a random thought, but Imagine if Stoor recorded/captured all the 5 or 6 artists various outputs and you could then play the role of Speedy J and conduct/mix them yourself, the number of variations would be vast. That would be a great interactive promotion tool Better still, each artist could also play role of conductor and this could be a further release. My crystal ball says this will be done for the 10th anniversary haha.
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