Struggling with working ITB

The Lounge
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I’ve always known soft synths were an instant inspiration killer for me, but now I’m trying to switch to a hybrid workflow with hardware synths and software effects (on the iPad, but I think it still counts as a box). Guess what: somehow I suck at applying software effects to recorded dry tracks, it always sounds worse to me than whatever I achieve with built-in effects or guitar pedals (the only exception being compression which I love doing ITB).

And I know I can’t blame the effects for that, I have some top notch stuff like Eventide reverbs. Yet I’m not happy with the results.

The obvious solution would be having a pedal-centered setup, but that’s not really viable unless I upgrade the mixer/interface (I’m running the XR18 and I’m perfectly happy with it, but it obviously limits the amount of FX chains I can have with 16 inputs and 6 sends), and I don’t have the money for that.

Another solution would be to put the pedals right between the synths and the mixer inputs, but that means I’d only be able to record wet tracks, I wouldn’t be able to adjust anything without re-recording, and it would be a pain to mix.

I could also try making my own effects in Drambo or something, that sounds time consuming and very challenging, but probably would give me exactly the controls I need and nothing else that would give me option paralysis.

Have you had any issues like this? How did you get out of this rut?

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If this is the case, why are you making this change?

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My setup can’t have any more effect loops, mixing wet signals is a pain, plus I’m trying to streamline everything and get rid of extra stuff.

Basically, what I’m trying to achieve is easier mixing and recording of a more manageable and streamlined setup with higher quality without my inspiration (and my wallet) taking a hit.

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Have you tried using a midi controller for VST FX?
Being able to easily tweak more than one param at a time plus record that tweaking can add a LOT life into the process and sound.

Something like the Novation Launch Control XL for example.

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Is your process multitrack recording in one take or several passes of one instrument at a time.

The reason I’m asking is because I record everything wet into the mixer and I don’t have any issues mixing. BUT I record everything in one take multitracked. I can fully understand that it would be a pain to record several passes of one instrument at a time with a wet signal.

I am already doing the mixing pre recording so all ITB work is really more about adjusting levels and tweaking EQ on each track a bit. The main mixing and gain staging is already a part of the song making.

Could it be that it’s actually your recording process that is acting like a crutch in your music making?

I’m trying to view this from different angles, hope you don’t mind!

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I’m planning to do that actually. But the thing is, I don’t tweak the pedals live, so I’m not sure that’s the part that is missing. Maybe it’s more about having a streamlined device with only a few important options versus a variety of plugins with tons of possibilities hidden in each. Or the fact that I inevitably spend some time after obtaining a piece of gear exploring it, while with plugins I expect them to “just work” without any learning curve.

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I’ve done both, but I’m leaning to the former. In fact, I’m rebuilding my studio now after moving (and got pretty much stuck at 95% completion for months), so all my tracks in the last few months are done on the OP-Z. I didn’t bother and just recorded master stereo wet all the time, but yesterday I was recording a minimal track with only 2 instruments, so I decided to record them dry and separately, two passes.

That’s actually what the last months have forced me to learn. When you have gear that can’t be multitracked efficiently (multiple audio tracks but only one stereo out), making everything sound well together at the sound design stage suddenly turns from a (perceived) perfectionist excess into a crucial requirement. Hopefully, I’m going to carry this skill back to my studio once I finish procrastinating and complete it.

It totally could be! However, in this case, I was pretty much happy with how everything sounded on the device, but I wanted to explore more sonic possibilities with the plugins. Like yeah, there’s nothing wrong with the OP-Z delay and reverb, but I know there’s much better stuff out there in software, so I expected to be able to achieve more with more sophisticated tools and failed miserably. Maybe that was just overconfidence.

A potentially unrelated fact: I don’t like using soft synths for anything other than quick placeholder tracks (don’t even use them as sample fodder as I don’t enjoy sound design on them), but I have no objections using a Ctrlr panel for my Alpha Juno, so it’s not like using a mouse or a touch interface is an instant turn off. And it’s not about the sound either, I’m not cool enough to pretend I hear the difference between hardware and software.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it all boils down to the lack of time investment into software, because I expect it to “just work”, unlike the hardware that I treat with all due respect.

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This! Give it some more time before changing the process again. You haven’t given the software FX enough time to really find the sweet spots. Over time, you’ll find your go-to settings then make minor tweaks depending on the source. Keep going for a few weeks first, then decide if you’re better off with the pedals you already know and love.

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…the option paralysis…

THAT’s THE STRUGGLE…u are not alone…

but in ur case, it sounds even worse, since u still try to keep ur pedals involved while wanna go back to itb but trying to achieve all this within an ipad…

puh…first, try to stop hiding behind fx…or make music with fx…
most fx are the that little shiny detail, the overall makeup…or go radical drown everything with it but than u gotto cut those sounds again, drop them in a sampler and start to play those again in one shot fashion to find ur way to final tracks…

presets are good starting points, but usually u end up with a copied sonic narrative or u loose ur vision along the way and it works like a total creative killer…

dunno what ur mainframe/daw is on the ipad…
i hardly suggest u start using the ipad also as an instrument but not as ur final itb solution…

look/listen around u…we all cook with water…
i’d say, make a tough cut…sell some stuff and get urself a real itb machine and a software like bitwig to start from scratch, where u can realize, u don’t need anything else to get along and presets are all yesterday parties…in bitwig it’s so easy to just work with naked waveforms and create ur very own sounds from scratch…while u create ur very own patterns with with ease via note fx and all the fx make up with nothing fancy but simple elements that can add up step by step to huuuuuge and understatement make up fx at once…

u better start to focus on one instrument…one that can take u anywhere, no matter how small ur very first attempt/idea/feeling is…u start with nothing and than just see/hear it evolving while u really start exploring and having fun again…

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To me it sounds like you have to learn your software (and maybe mixing) more. I don’t know if it’s true, but to me it sounds that way. If your tracks get worse when applying itb effects, you have to find out what’s wrong and work on it.

How long have you been at it? Some of us have been doing this for centuries and are slowly getting the hang of it.

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I’d be interested to know which FX you are using.

With really powerful stuff like Fabfilter you can do amazing things or totally ruin things if you don’t have a really deep understanding.

Most of the Baby Audio for example is very limited in what it does but it’s just one big sweet spot.

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How long have you been making music and working on your recording and mixing skills? As others have mentioned, these are both skills that take many years and the proverbial 10,000 hours to develop. A bit more context about you and your situation might be helpful.

My input is that all of this takes time. Nothing is instant gratification, and frankly, it shouldn’t be. The music you are probably inspired by was made by people who have put in the hours. It really doesn’t matter if you are using software effects, pedals, hardware synths, etc; what matters is your ears and how they react to sound.

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At the moment I can’t afford that, an iPad is quite cheap, as well as the software for it, and honestly Cubasis 3 is more or less sufficient for my needs, given that I only need FX/recording/mixing from the iPad.

That’s what I’ve been doing with my OP-Z for the last few months, and it has really helped me.

On and off for many years, more or less serious for the last 3 years maybe, focused a lot on mixing last year, but all my best tracks are from this year, all of them are written on the OP-Z and exported as master stereo without any mixing, which probably says a lot about my mixing skills lol. Turns out, my tracks sound best if I don’t touch them after recording, except for dynamics.

Reverbs: Eventide Blackhole, BLEASS reverb, BLEASS shimmer, Audio Damage Eos 2

Delay: Audio Damage Other Desert Cities

I’m trying to replicate either sweet spot pedals like the Digitech Polara/Obscura, instant evil stuff like the OBNE Dark Star or the basic reverb and delay my OP-Z has. So yeah, you may be onto something.

You got me instantly interested in Crystalline, quite expensive though.

Given that I achieve results I like with very limited tools, maybe I don’t need anything powerful and deep, I need something immediate and with a huge sweet spot.

Also my approach of “scroll through presets which are all too extreme, choose one and try to dial it it” doesn’t seem to work at all, should use something more similar to my pedal workflow, or indeed build my own effects.

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Renoise and Komplete Kontrol(plugin) fixed this for me

If you want more immediate control, get an M32 and prop it up in front of your monitor.

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If it were easy, everybody would be doing it… it takes time and you actually have to put effort into it. Most of all you have to train your ear for it.

It’s rewarding though…

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I’d go all-in on Drambo, pick your favorite AUv3 FX (I love Other Desert Cities too!), and go from there.

Ignore the presets, and dial them in by ear. If you’re coming from hardware you already know how to do that.

I also find I get lost in a DAW, and don’t feel any inspiration from using soft synths. My answers are a) Drambo, because its sequencer feels like hardware, and b) Ableton, but with a template so I don’t get lost. One drum rack, one Operator, Pianoteq (I’m learning piano), with a MIDI controller pre-mapped to the important parts. I try not to go higher than 8 tracks (my keyboard has 8 track selector buttons).

With Drambo it’s easy to export all tracks as stems in one go, and just drop them into Cubasis.

The thing with hardware is that you tend to focus on a new bit of gear until you learn it. With software, it’s easy to lose focus. Try to treat the software like it’s hardware.

Plus, there’s a killer new Drambo update today!

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I say this constantly, but- RECORD, RECORD, RECORD!!!

You have to listen back to what you’re doing, away from where you’re doing it (listen where you normally just listen to music (car, around the house, commuting, etc), in order to properly assess what you are doing.
Listening back is where you learn and develop… same goes in this case.

There is a weird psychosis with working ITB with software vs hardware… I think we equate the tactile experience with hardware to the sound results and prefer them over software, but, if you record and listen back often, you realise that’s BS.

It is, however, really easy to overcook things ITB, and that’s the skill/craft people need to learn and develop.

For the OP, I would say I personally find the iPad experience a bit frustrating and treat mine mainly as a sound source these days like I would a synth… give me a laptop with Ableton any day, it’s 10x productive IMO.

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The one I use all the time is Super VHS which does a lot (Saturation, Chorus, Reverb, Noise, Flutter), but none of it is very configurable and it’s just a total vibe for getting the wonkey synthwave vibe.

You might like Spaced out which is a delay / reverb it’s designed around being very simple to tweak and has some randomisation functions which make it really easy.

I’m not yet very good at mixing and things like that but one thing I noticed coming from the Polyend Tracker is that when everything was smashed through the PT limiter and coming out stereo it would have this nice cohesive grunge to it and when I exported stems and dropped it into Bitwig it sounded really weak and like a bunch of separate noises not a track.
I realised that’s because DAWs are super clean by design and if you want that vibe you have to put it in yourself.

That means putting all the percussion in a bus and all the synths in a bus and adding in a bit of tape sim / saturation / glue compression / room reverb / whatever so they all stick together and sound like they are living in one place.

Also coming from a guitar pedal background myself I didn’t make enough use of FX on send busses and tended to put them in line. That’s a valid strategy, but if you have a bunch of different delays and reverb on every channel it can get very clashy. Also from what you said about the presets being too much. That might be the case if you put them in line on the track, but if you had them on a send bus and were just feeding a little bit in it might not be so that might be why you aren’t getting on with presets so much.

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Unfortunately, due to the financial and space constraints I’m only using an iPad as “the box”. The software is so much cheaper here.

I’m actually thinking of building effect chains in Drambo. This way, I would know every in and out from the beginning, given the effort put into building these effects.

I don’t really consider using it as a sequencer or a sound source, as I’m perfectly happy with using hardware for that.

I’m actually my biggest fan already! Sometimes I can loop a single track for hours.

It’s counter-intuitive, but somehow I enjoyed using my Alpha Juno with a software editor (the hardware interface sucks anyway). But yeah, it all boils down to psychology anyway.

It’s not without shortcomings, but I’m not very demanding when it comes to the box, given that I don’t use it for sequencing, sound generation or arrangement. Plus it’s cheap (in terms of software, first of all) and doesn’t take much space.

Thanks, I’ve added it to the wishlist! Spaced out isn’t on iPad yet, unfortunately. But there’s Magic Dice that uses its algorithms, should check it out.

I actually realized that today, working the track that made me start this thread. I practiced more with dry tracks today, and while I managed to get the melody pretty close to the wet version with the help of the AU3FX:Space reverb (this one seems to be pretty simple, and I’ve achieved reasonably good results with it), turns out the bass is nowhere as punchy as it is in the stereo master track.
Ended up using the stereo master exactly for that reason. Yes, it means that I’m less flexible, but it just sounds better.