Songwriting/finishing tracks on hardware?

When I worked ITB, I could finish songs quite easily, because I could see the whole song before me.
But now Im trying to compose more directly on the hardware, so that its easier to perform live.

But I find myself getting stuck in jam mode often. I’ll start on a loop, and then evolve it into what I think are sections, but before I know it I’ve meandered off into a whole new pattern in a different key, and when I bring it back to the original patterns its just a completely different song, that makes no sense.

Everytime I sit down to write on hardware, I just end up with 20 or so patterns, that kinda work well all together as a random jam, but with no coherent theme or structure.

Anyone got any tips for what they do to keep them structured??

I found this guys tips very helpful.
He keeps all songs in a structured pattern across all machinees. Super logical.

Anybody willing to share their tips or tricks for actually finishing tracks on hardware?

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On OT I use 4 patterns per part, so 1-4=part one 5-8=part 2 and so on and try to stick to that for the sake of organisation, I generally just build a track at a time but when time comes to build a set im gonna buy rustys octaedit and pick a bunch of my favourite tracks of similar BPMs and put them together, pretty sure it can do that. Calling @Rusty Can you confirm that octaedit can do this?

Also you may get more direct advice if you post what gear youre using, its quite a gear specific question. The only advice I can give you is to write with intention and not jam, allow yourself a pallete of sounds or instruments and stick with it, know what youre trying to make and not just jam your way to something pleasant sounding. Also consider your song structures beforehand, it can vary a lot depending on what genre you produce. Im not saying dont jam at all by the way, jam to inspiration and then when you hit something you like flesh it out rather than continuing to make new ideas

well, you just need to rehearse and practice more, but make it quality practice. sounds like you also need to spend time defining your high-level conceptual approach

if you have problems with a lack of structure then impose it externally - write an arrangement down on a sheet of paper, perhaps rehearse with a stopwatch - even if you don’t bring your arrangement paper (sheet music) and stopwatch on stage you still need to practice the way you’d like to perform

also, what jb said about knowing your sounds/instruments so you have a good idea of what it’s going to sound like before you do it (even if improvising) is an invaluable concept related to the phenomenon known as ‘audiation’; an important cornerstone of musicianship and strong sense of it is required for mastery and command of an instrument

Yes, that’s me too exactly.
Especially with Elektron machines I just keep tweaking and fiddling with sounds and having so much fun.
The only idea that I’ve had is to record a full “jamming” session and then find the good bits and practice them or edit into a song.

I’m that guy, and I’m not. I can’t finish stuff on software, for reasons I’ve never quite understood. But it is what it is.

In hardware, it’s easier for me. Though I can get lost in noodling and jamming, my fingers move quickly once I know what I want to do.

And I think there’s the rub. Music writing isn’t easy by any stretch, and perhaps in your case it’s just a matter of learning your hardware to the extent that operating them isn’t part of the process, it comes natural to you, and instead getting to that place in your mind where you can think about where to go next with the track, is where you wanna be.

But the dragon part is that working with hardware, evokes that part of you where it’s just amazingly satisfying to sit down and play. And while that’s distracting, that’s also very rewarding. In software, distraction usually comes from bullshit stuff such as crashes, e-mails and some random notification or update requirement. In hardware, it comes from you going off on a tangent. And you shoulnd’t fight that, just accept that some sessions are about just sitting down and playing, and that’s cool, too.

EDIT: I should perhaps point out that I’ve been with hardware since the dawn of time, and while I work with computers every day and on a hardcore level, them and music and my brain don’t match. My first synth was a Yahama SY-55 and I’ve been a hardware guy since then. So in a way, I don’t know anything else, though not for lack of trying.

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I have pretty much given up finishing songs on hardware. I tried to do whole tracks in one take on Rytm, which is possible for minimal techno and dub techno, and once made a whole track just on the Circuit. But in the end… I still am an ITB guy.

I now use each hardware piece on its own, for instance developing a drum loop on Rytm, then some arp on A4, setting up performance macros for later use. While I am on a train, I might do some chords using Grovebox app on the iPad.

Then I record everything, usually starting with the drums, into Ableton. I might record an evolving sequence on the A4 while modifying the timbre using the perf macros, or use the Rytms scenes to get some variations. After the audio parts have been recorded, I slice the recorded waves into loops and arrange them into scenes. While doing so, I balance the mix then on the main part and add delay, ambient reverb and distortion as needed. I usually eq low end from all parts except the kick and bass - something which can not easily be done on a pure hardware setup unless you have access to some high power mixer, which I do not have.

Finally, I record the whole track by selecting the prearranged scenes, possibly recording FX automations while the loops are running. A track usually consist of 7 such scenes, A buildup up to scene 4, then often some break, than the main loop with everything in it including the kitchen sink, then a breakdown. I mix into a compressor such that I have a mastering friendly wave with -23 LUFS loudness.

After that, all goes into audio and is pre-mastered using a small mastering chain (EQ->Compressor->Limiter) such that I have a -14 LUFS audio in the end.

At each step, there is enough room to improvise and play, so this does not feel constrained at all. On the other hand, I can do with just one piece of hardware while I am travelling (I do that a lot), and still use whatever I like together in the end.

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Just that nobody gets the wrong impression - the result is some simple dancey music that I create as a recreational excercise. My method might not be suitable for other types of music, anything less loop-oriented might not work.

https://soundcloud.com/zabong/five-master-14

[quote=“jb, post:2, topic:45188”] I generally just build a track at a time but when time comes to build a set im gonna buy rustys octaedit and pick a bunch of my favourite tracks of similar BPMs and put them together, pretty sure it can do that. Calling @Rusty Can you confirm that octaedit can do this?
[/quote]

Yep

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I use one pattern per song with parts banks(I do run about 6 machines fx peddles other synths tho) …just do it on the fly it’s the best way( trigs really make this happen quite easily) … have you DJed before? Feel it out count your bars I put a timer in front of me to make sure I don’t get carried away so easy to play forever lol I composed forever in front of the computer live is so much fun and easier you will get so much groove doing it this way hang in there and do it however you need to do it you will find out what works for you with practice

Oh I also use a zed24 mixer kind of steep on price but best purchase I ever made for recording multitrack

I find that the lack of control and my tendency not to accept mistakes in the live takes makes it hard for me to finish tracks outside the daw.

That said, i try to make the building blocks on the hardware and do most of the automations live to audiotracks really early in the production.

The master plan is to perform the track to a multitrack recording and then edit what i can’t live with but who knows when if at all thats a reality. Will give it a go for my next project as planned so my fingers are crossed.

there is generally a rule of thumb among traditional musicians that are used to live recording - if you can’t get a good enough performance in about 7 takes or less you simply haven’t had enough quality practice with that piece of music to even bother recording; you don’t need to accept mistakes if you aren’t making any

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You are absolutely right if you see your music from the performance side of things and expect to perform the music live.

On the other hand you could compare the production process to that of a composer and then those kind of obstacles is just in the way of getting the idea on paper so to speak.

Depends on the track for me i guess but i do want to get closer to the performance aspect of it so practise makes perfekt.

100%

Oh also always stand up and play make sure your ass is shaking

Am I wrong to think that mozart had absolute pitch and rigorous classical music training from a young age? Have you seen that dylan kid on youtube that can say and sing the specific notes in any cluster?

If I had this ability im sure id be smashing tracks out every morning too

After you create your first loop immediately move onto a B section. To keep it related you can base it on the previous A section by muting out all but one melodic part.

Ideas for variation are:

  1. Slowing or speeding up a previous sequence of notes.

  2. Reversing a sequence of notes.

  3. Inverting the melodic intervals of a sequence.

  4. Substituting chords for another chord that shares at least one note.

Once you have an A and B pattern immediately establish structure (AABA, ABAB, etc) It will be rough but as soon as you play it back you will begin to hear what you need to be doing and have a goal outlined for you.

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Yes, that’s definitely my perspective, but it goes a bit deeper than that. I think using the metaphor of ‘getting the idea on paper’ is a bit problematic; ultimately we are talking about producing an audio recording, a sonic experience. When a composer writes out a piece of sheet music the most practiced of them will actually ‘hear in the mind’s ear’ or ‘audiate’ the composition as they write the notes. I’m not talking about perfect pitch here - perfect pitch is actually fairly useless from a musical standpoint, it’s really not going to help you write melodies, harmonies, or compose music, it’s mostly a parlor trick and generally just an artifact of a child learning to play piano at a very young age (from a practical musical standpoint ‘relative pitch’, which is much easier to learn, is what you want to spend your time on - some people with perfect pitch actually find it disadvantageous). Perfect pitch is not going to help you know what happens when you start playing pattern 12 on Bank B with Part 3 - that requires time spent practicing the music you have written on the instrument you have written it for. Perfect pitch is not going to help you know how it will sound when you have a saxophone player squonk out a multiphonic or have an electric bassist slap a string, perfect pitch is not going to help you know in advance how it will sound when you adjust the modulation depth on that LFO or pick a different LFO shape, perfect pitch isn’t going to help you figure out how to satisfyingly resolve that gnarly chord progression you have half-written… the list goes on and on

There is a bit of a short-circuit happening with this audiation process when we use something like a DAW - we don’t need to fully pre-conceive what we are attempting to do. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, or I have a judgement of this, I think it’s great we have these options and tools, but I try to encourage myself to understand better where and when these tools are hurting rather than helping, particularly when it comes to developing overall musicianship - we all want producing tracks to be a more natural and fluid process, regardless of what way we ultimately approach the problem

when I see videos of people that are really good with their DAWs and producing tracks on the computer in general it’s very clear to me that they know how 90%+ of what they are doing is going to sound like before they even do it - you only gain that type of mastery through quality practice over a long period of time and intimate familiarity with your tools, whether that’s sheet music, piano, a DAW, or an Elektron Box

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I have really struggled with finishing songs on hardware. I come from using Reason and now Live. For the past 5-6 years I tried to get into using hardware only. Not for me. I like to have multiple projects going at one time, tweak tiny details, enjoy seeing a timeline representation of my song, quickly spot and fix errors, etc. Hardware isn’t conducive to those things, in my experience at least.

I still have some hardware. I just don’t expect myself to write full songs on hardware-only. They are sound sources. I like to sound design on hardware - Rytm, MS20, Minilogue, etc. I like to tweak knobs and sliders on synths as I record audio parts into Ableton.

These days I am trying to create a new workflow for myself by using pattern change clips in Ableton to change patterns in the Rytm (Verse = A1, Chorus = A2 and so on). This way I can see my song laid out in the DAW timeline, move clips around, shorten/lengthen clips, make fills, new Rytm patterns, etc. all while retaining that view and control of the song in Ableton Arrangement View timeline. Use OverBridge to record separate audio tracks for later EQ’ing and FX. Use Perf and Scene while recording audio for variation, performance feel, fun. It’s all working pretty well so far, imo.

Everybody has their own way of working, circumstances, goals, time limitations, musical styles, etc. Always interesting to me to hear what others are doing.