Slightly Complex thing to solve . . . For someone who knows what to do

[apmbpm]

Hi,
Quick question, hopefully easily solved.

On my Octatrack, when I do the transition trick, having used a flex machine to record an internal loop, the loop I record and switch to is significantly quieter than the main output.
As such, there is a marked step in volume as I switch from the live loop to the recorded one.
Why does this happen? What do I need to do to ensure seemless changeover to the recording?

Many thanks,
Adam

[husc]

I use a 1-shot rec trig for my loop, set ‘CUE’ as the source. Set it to crossfade to ‘XLEV’ and I never had a volume difference!

[husc]

This might be your issue and solution:

10.3.2 SCENE VOLUME LOCKING

Certain parameters specially made for volume fades are available exclusively to scenes.
The XLV, XVOL and XDIR parameters can be regarded as a set of extra volume controllers on top of the LEVEL, VOL and DIR parameters.
The difference lies in the way they handle volume fades. Locking them accordingly will make the crossfader fade between the volume of the tracks or inputs in an equal energy fashion. This way of locking volumes is suitable when wanting to avoid the volume dip that otherwise would occur when the crossfader is used to fade between two tracks and reaches the center position.

The parameters are only visible when keeping a [SCENE] key pressed. The XLV parameter is found as an overlay to the LEVEL parameter found in all TRACK PARAMETER pages.

The XVOL parameter is found in the AMP MAIN menu. The XDIR AB and XDIR CD parameters are found in the MIXER menu.

The XLV parameter can be locked to two settings.
MIN will mute the signal, post track effects.
MAX will let signal through at the set LEVEL signal level.

The XVOL parameter (on the AMP menu) can be locked to two settings. MIN will mute the signal, pre track e ects.
MAX will let signal through at the set VOL signal level.

The two XDIR parameters (on the MIXER menu) can each be locked to two settings. MIN will mute the signal.
MAX will let signal through at the set DIR signal level.

Pressing the LEVEL knob while holding down the [SCENE] key pressed will remove the LEVEL lock. An XVOL lock is removed by pressing the corresponding DATA ENTRY knob while keeping the [SCENE] key pressed. An XDIR AB lock is removed by pressing knob B while keeping the [SCENE] key pressed. XDIR CD is removed by pressing knob C while keeping the [SCENE] key pressed.

(It’s a lot, but figure it out and you can do smooth transition or roll your own technique)

[tsutek]

This is presumably because the octatrack lowers the sample level by 6dB after sampling in order to not clip the internal summing bus, which seems to be using fixed point summing math, not floating point.

So in order to have unity at playback, you need to boost the flex track playback volume. Sorry cannot remember the exact value but IIRC its documented somewhere on this board.

[ClayFace]

Hey @apmbpm,

@tsutek is correct!

I’ve also run into wtf moments when resampling the master output when track 8 is set to master- particularly when it has a compressor in one of the fx slots because that recorded output then gets recompressed when it’s played back through the master track again as a sample.

Just thought I’d add that as I think it’s worth keeping in mind as well.

Let us know how it goes! I’ll be at my octa tomorrow and can test things out on my own unit if you need some clarification then.

[apmbpm]

Cheers tsutek, that feels like what’s happening.

Clayface, I was wondering about compressing etc. but made sure there was none of that applied to the tracks. Also, I don’t use track 8 as master. I think tsutek is right. I now need to read back and find the value to boost the track by and then I should be good.

Thanks for all your replies everyone: this evening I’ll mess with it.

[sezare56]

the sample level by 6dB after sampling

-12db actually. IIRC, you have to set Vol to 12.
Edit VOL=63 > +12db

[LyingDalai]

I don’t use track 8 as master

This is yet a good thing to use 8 as master to get a good control on your volume level while doing the transition.

[husc]

I can do a recording to tonight and do some readouts. I have used and tested the transition method (using CUE and XLV) and never had to extra compensate for the -6db (or -12db) .

It is strange to read old threads about this volume difference and at the same time I don’t seem to experience it!?

[sezare56]

Gain Pain

Tell me this is wrong … Please ! [Edit, yes, it probably is] The Octatrack takes your decent ‘hot’ signal It drops the level at the inputs by ~12dB It then adds 12dB of gain to the recording to get you back to the original level i’m not sure that sounds like a good plan, can anyone convince me it is ! ? It’s helping me understand why my levels are all over the place with pickup machines, but i can now see it’s the same with flex and tellingly with Thru When you put a decent signal throug…

[tsutek]

This is because you resample via the CUE and not the physical ABCD inputs. Or that’s the only explanation I can come up anyway…?

[sezare56]

Same problem with CUE or SRC3 source IIRC.
For overdub with FLEX, I need to set VOL to 12 to keep same level.
Edit : in fact it is VOL = 63, if attributes GAIN is set to 0db.

[husc]

I guess that’s it!

I am recording the level differences of all the above described methods tonight to see for myself.

I don’t like the idea of having to level compensate, my setup evolves as it goes and sometimes I’ll use track 7 (my resampling/transition track) for regular sample playback and would forget to remove the gain compensation…

Thanks for all the info! This forum is nice people

[sezare56]

There is - 12db attenuation on the recorded sample, but also +12db default gain compensation in Recordings attributes.
That’s why you don’t ear it.

I’m not sure what is the best if you want to load a sample in a recording slot, in order to overdub it :
Set ATTRIBUTES =+12db or VOL=63 ?

[sezare56]

@apmbpm, I think you can change the tittle of the thread. Not simple.
With a new project I just realised that SRC3 MAIN as source depends on MAIN LEVEL, which make sense.
BUT, with MAIN LEVEL at 0, the recording is lower. If you set or MAIN LEVEL at 12, it seems ok. You can also compensate with VOL = 12 if MAIN LEVEL = 0, or track LEVEL 127.

To sum up, it’s not simple. It is important to choose Main LEVEL. Set to +63, it seems to
correspond to +12db. Set VOL=-32 to compensate. Or attributes at 0db.

[sezare56]

With a new project, default settings, I think the simpliest to resample MAIN without volume loss is to set the recording track level to 127.

If you change MAIN LEVEL, you have to compensate.
If you use T8 as Master FX, set its LEVEL to 127, and plock its fx parameters to neutral settings when playing the recording only with crossfader.
Any thoughts ? @avantronica @Open_Mike @Clancy…

Edit, that said, above is the simpliest but in order to have the best noise / signal ratio for audio outputs, maybe it’s better to set MAIN LEVEL to 63, and ATTRIBUTES GAIN at 0db.

[apmbpm]

Thanks for all the help everyone.

I’ve recently added a Xone DB4 to my setup which has a looping function. However, I don’t want to “waste” one of the mixer channels for song transitions when I can use the Octatrack itself.
When I say"recently added" I mean last night. Still trying to ascertain the best way to use it with my Octatrack, Ableton and Analog Four.
So ways of working are going to develop over coming days but Octatrack transition trick seems a central mechanism.

[funkymogli]

i had the same problem but since i let the mains volume (shift + level) at zero, everything works fine

[sezare56]

@funkymogli Do you increase track level to 127?

[funkymogli]

have to check… @work now