Hi everyone,
I’ve decided to start using my guitar pedalboard, Korg NTS and tascam as outboard effects for both my DAW Audio and my synths. However I’d like to be able to still record the dry outputs of my synths at the same time, rather than plugging and unplugging everything then doing another take. I have a 48 point patchbay (well a bit less than that with the broken inputs). All of the inputs are currently in use for the synths, Korg NTS , tascam and pedalboard outputs.
I’d also need to be able to route my DAW audio to these three as well.
I was thinking if I had all of the synth outputs summed via a mixer into a stereo splitter (for dry outputs into interface channels 1+2) then into ABY switcher that goes to the pedalboard, NTS and tascam so that I could switch between where the split signal is being routed to eventually going back into inputs 3+4 of my interface. But then I wouldn’t know where to bring in the DAW audio.
Is that the best solution for doing that or would something similar be achievable if I just bought another cheap patchbay rather than a mixer? Until now I’ve only used my patchbay for basic routing of my synths into my interface and ocassionally an effect here or there.
If that’s a complicated solution to something that could be simplified please let me know!
You can do both splitting and mixing at the same time if you use two channels for each. This explains how the Splitmix4 works because it might not be obvious - ART SPLITMix4
Which model Clarett is it? And which Mackie mixer exactly? Are you recording to the tascam? If so, is your end point that you want to record a wet / effected stereo mix onto channels 1&2 and a dry stereo mix into channels 3&4 on the tascam?
It’s the Clarett 4pre and it would be a Mackie 1604 VLZ. I haven’t bought the Mackie yet as I was hoping to find an alternative routing. I would only be recording to the Tascam as another effects send, so like a guitar pedal for example. The end point would be FX Stereo mix on channels 1&2 and dry on channels 3&4 of the clarett.
Hey @ForestDusk thanks for the extra info. I’ll have a think about solutions today and get back to you. I love routing conundrum puzzle solving! Listened to your music on SoundCloud and really like it by the way - right up my street!
What do you use the Tascam for? And what model is it?
Do you ever want to multitrack to the DAW? Or are you going to be forever happy with just stereo into the DAW?
How many channels do you want to be able to send from your DAW out to other things? Is just stereo fine?
Do you always use the DAW or do you sometimes want to work without the DAW?
Is the pedalboard / FX board a stereo or mono signal path? Might be mono in and stereo out maybe? And do you use it as an insert (i.e entire mix/group goes through it) or as a send?
Which dual reamp box is it?
How many channels are working on your patchbay, and is it a 48 point one with jack sockets?
Do you have any other gear like an ADAT converter, or any other mixers/signal splitting/combining devices knocking about that might help?
Final question - are you likely to add any further sound sources/processors in the future or are you pretty set with this line-up of gear?
I’m looking at suggesting 2 solutions - one that attempts to get you what you want without buying new stuff, and one that involves buying new stuff.
Generally speaking, given the amount of units in your setup and your desired routing I’d want a mixer in the system, but I’ve read the Clarett 4pre manual and it looks like it can work as a standalone mixer as well as a DAW interface, so it can possibly handle the routing you need, but it’s not the same as a hands-on mixer with sends, groups & faders etc…
BUT if you don’t get a mixer I’m thinking a big limiting factor is the limited number of 8 outputs (4 analogue line, 2 analogue via headphone out #2, 2 digital via SPDIF (which you might not have anything available to make use of).
This might be workable though, depending on your answers to my questions above.
I’ll basically just be running DAW Audio and Synths through it essentially using it as an effects unit, and then back into the DAW. It’s a 424 MK2
I’ll probably want to multitrack at some point
Just stereo is fine.
I always use a DAW
Its mono in but stereo out, I was thinking of running a effects loop like I do with my guitars. I have a few mono gain pedals into stereo modulation, delays and reverbs.
It’s the ART Dual Reamp Direct Box.
Yeah it’s a 48 point patchbay (Behringer PX2000), a few of the inputs don’t work though so I’m happy to buy another as a second for more patch points.
Unfortunately not, I was solely ITB until a few years ago and until now I’ve just been recording one thing at a time, unplugging everything, running it through whatever and then plugging things back in again.
So in answer to the last question a few others there, I think the answer seems to be to buy a mixer, which I’m more than happy to do so that I can multitrack anyways. As you pointed out though I could do this with the Focusrite software, but it seems to be a bit buggy on my Mac OS so whilst everything is working currently I don’t want to mess around with it haha.
The mixer solves one issue but the thing I can’t figure out other than splitters and foot switches is how I’d be able to select the pedalboard, tascam and then the Korg NTS as effects units seperately. I guess a second patchbay would fix that issue?
Hey mate here’s a plan for a 96 point patchbay (which is essentially the “map” of the system) - I hope it makes sense but any questions let me know.
Essentially I would want a setup that gives me maximum flexibility with as little repatching as possible, and allows me access to all the inputs and outputs I would want to use, whilst simplifying the recording process but maintaining maximum options.
I’ve added text in text boxes further down the page on each tab to talk through some routings/use cases, and whilst it could kinda work without a mixer and using just your Clarett for routing, (tab 1), without having used the Clarett software and therefore not being 100% sure of it’s capabilities/idiosynchrasies, and given that you’ve said it’s a bit buggy on Mac OS I would strongly recommend the mixer solution (tab 2), so you can set-and-forget the Clarett software. The Clarett would just be a straightforward one-to-one inputs-to-DAW and DAW-to-outputs box, rather than a pseudo-mixer you’d need to keep adjusting.
Overall, the mixer you’ve suggested Mackie 1604VLZ4 is a very good choice - great value for the features, your gear just about fits in, it enables all the routing options you’ve asked for, and many more besides. Plus it’s not massive - not sure if space is a consideration for you! BUT if you add more sources in the future you don’t have any spare channels left with my current plan and the 1604… you might consider getting the 2404 to future-proof yourself.
There are other options that could be arguably better in terms of audio and build quality - the Allen & Heath GL range springs to mind (they are large though), and there are other offerings from Soundcraft and Yamaha etc you could consider.
New gear you’d need:
Mackie 1604VLZ mixer or something else that equals or exceeds this in terms of channel count, sends and groups count, that has direct outs and group direct outs.
Another 48 point patchbay (and you’ll want all the channels on your current one to work too because it’s a tight squeeze to fit everything in) - I highly recommend the Samson S-Patch units - I have 2 myself. They have switches on the front to change the normalling which is superhandy!
An ADAT expander to get access to 8 more inputs on your Clarett so you can have everything plugged up and just leave it for most use cases, without having to do loads of patching - all routing would be done on the mixer pretty much - this could wait though if you don’t need to multi-track everything straight away - you can patch stuff to cope with the limited inputs of the Clarett in the meantime. Cheapest solution would probably be a 2nd-hand ADA8000, but the newer ADA8200 has “better” converters and possibly better build quality…
Possibly you’d want an SPDIF to analogue converter to access the final 2 possible outputs for your Clarett (link to a suggested item in the spreadsheet - I’ve not tried it though so cannot vouch for it!)
You’ll need cables - a fairly large amount of cables. Don’t omit that from your cost estimation!
I think if you deploy this or a similar solution, you’ll be wondering how you ever managed before… I’ve just done a total re-configuration of my own similarly complex setup (well, I’m still in the process of doing it) and it’s made my sessions far less stressful, and I can spend more time actually making music rather than repatching and problem-solving. Highly recommended.
Mate you are an absolute hero, I don’t have the words to thank you enough!!! I massively owe you one. This makes so much more sense now and you even accounted for sending to the filters of some of the synths which I thought might be a bit out of range. If there’s anything I can do to in some way pay your time figuring this out back then please send me a message on here.
On the mixer front the 1604 Is pretty much the only thing I’d be able to fit at the moment, I can always swap the 1604 out for something else in the future but for now it’s just to massively speed up my workflow and actually make use of all the equipment I’ve bought haha. Will definitely have a look at the Samson, I did get the Behringer for £15 but it’s temperamental nature has started to get annoying.
“it’s made my sessions far less stressful, and I can spend more time actually making music rather than repatching and problem-solving. Highly recommended.” - This is the main goal for me, I get so annoyed having so much good equipment lying around that it’s just too much of a hassle to continuously plug in and out that I never end up using half of it.
You are most welcome and you owe me nothing! I enjoy helping and as I said I do love a routing conundrum - some people do Sudoku; I do spreadsheets.
I’ve just been doing this for my own setup and my mind was in the right space for thinking about this kind of task, and since I’d already made the spreadsheet templates it made sense to share my “battle readiness” with others - I find knowledge and experience is best when it’s shared.
The Behringer patchbays are totally fine if you can find ones in good condition. If there’s one thing in your studio you don’t want to be flaky, it’s patchbays (and cables!).
I’d be up for some kind of collaboration in the future if you felt so inclined - I could do with another mind to bounce off in my musical endeavours, and I suspect our tastes are similar. No pressure of course!
Good luck with the reorganisation project - bear in mind some gremlins I’ve not considered might show themselves when you come to actually do it, but I reckon it’s a good starting point.
Hit me up again if you need any more advice - always happy to help when I can.
As someone else on the forum here said, building a studio is usually best viewed as an iterative process, and remember to never let the perfect be the enemy of the possible.
Thank you again mate! I was initially liking planning our the routing but then I get overwhelmed haha.
And yeah 100% I’d be up for working on something, if you’re on instagram (only social I use) then send me a message on here, if not give a message on here or Soundcloud when you have an idea for something!
