Where I ended up with the track from this mornings exploration:
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It’s technically not supported, but I really quite enjoy using my old Push 1 alongside my push 3. You cannot have one device focused on one track and the other device focused on another, but what I end up doing is using the
push 1 in session/grid mode and with the mixer mode activated on the screen and knobs. This allows me to focus on the playing surface and track devices on Push 3. It even works this way in standalone.
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In a very similar situation right now. I have P3s and syntakt going to the octatrack. I have octatrack being the master clock, syntakt slave of the octa, push slave of the syntakt. Adjusting the latency in push I manage to have it synced, and without a lot of added overall latency.
Due to the problems you referred above I have push just sending one program change message in the beginning of a song. This basically means that I can only have one syntakt pattern per song, or I´ll have to do change patterns manually - you can right down on a clip in Push which Syntakt pattern should play on a certain scene, for example - or I just don’t know how I would make it work. Im using syntakt only for drums/ percussion and bass. Octatrack is a creative mixer/looper and it works perfectly, syntakt is the one that is giving more headaches and I still don’t know if it will fit my workflow
Advantages:
- Having access to the Syntakt analog voices, plus some additional drums from push to be processed by the syntakt;
- Elektron sequencer
- Elektron workflow - how easy is to add variations to patterns , sounds and to revert back to a saved state, for example.
- A more personalised setup - other than “just” using push 3 and Ableton devices
Disadvantages:
- adds latency;
- adds complexity;
- Only one pattern per song for drums is a limitation
- having to work with midi sync
- don’t love all of the syntakts machines
- Needs more headspace to perform.
Right now I am really trying to make this setup work. I am definitely a noob on the syntakt so there is a lot to explore in it, which will definitely make it more valuable.
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Good hack, but I’m operating too many boxes to manually switch patterns. I also couldn’t stand to be limited to a single pattern.
Last night I experimented with follow actions + negative track delay. So far, no luck.
I’m generally hesitant to request features to support my particular workflow, but I have a hunch about this. As Ableton adoption increases even further and the Push paradigm gets stronger, Ableton is moving into performance contexts that were previously the domain of Elektron. Dataline is the canary in the coal mine.
Elektron will have to figure out whether to work hard to play nice with their German neighbors, or ask us to choose.
Unfortunately, if I can’t get this hardware synchronized well for live performance, I’ll have to sell the Elektron boxes and double down on the Push.
Elektron really ought to pay @Airyck to focus on Pattern Clips full time.
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Hello Push 3 users. I didn’t want to make a new thread to ask this question, but lmk if that would be the better choice akshually.
I’m considering working in the daw for a change and am looking for opinions on controllers. I’ve been out of touch for a minute.
Is there any reason to consider hapax or oxi one over p3? Assume budget is 1k. Budget is -1k but a person can dream.
If your looking for a controller for Ableton then no better than Push3 simple as that.
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I am not sure, if I understand you correctly, but neither Hapax nor Oxi One are Controllers. Both are sequencers, that are built to send notes and modulation-values to sound-sources. Maybe you can use both to some kind of control you DAW, but thats not their main purpose.
I don’t know for sure, but it might be that you can use both as some kind of Launchpad to start and stop patterns in the session view, and maybe you can even use them as grid-layout keyboards, but if I remember correctly, both are not velocity sensitive.
A cheaper option just to press some buttons are definitively the Launchpads.
But: There is no controller out there that provides the same feature-set and integration into a daw than the Push does with Ableton. You can access all the plugins with their settings in there, you can (with limitation) write full songs in Ableton on a Push without ever moving your fingers and eyes away from the push (thats why Push 3 Standalone works). So if you want to work in a daw, but want to do as much as possible without your mouse or touchpad, there is no way around the Push (in my opinion).
Dependent on how final your decision is and what you skills and needs are, you might be as happy with a second hand Push 2 as with a Push 3, because if you dont need Standalone and dont need MPE, Push 2 to should be a lot cheaper but as powerful as the P3 is.
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Lol yes I meant ‘sequencers’ not ‘controllers’… long week.
Thank you. I have considered push 2 just to test the features and workload first.
Let me start up with this: I currently do 99.9% of my music making with my Push 3 Standalone. I have to switch to my notebook once in a while for stuff that does not work in Standalone, but thats a few minutes every now and than.
Besides that: I hate the “sequencer” part of the Push 3. Other than drums, that work quite nicely on the grid, everything chord and melody (and even a lot of percussion) I do by recording me playing it on the grid. Using it like you might use an Elektron Box, by “programming” every step, it is a workflow I really don’t like and never really use.
Have not used Hapax but I have owned the Oxi One and a deluge (thats also a grid based sequencer), and both are superior if you want to create you music by programming steps. If I find myself wanting to create stuff I am not able to play, I either move over to the MacBook and place notes by mouse, or I connect my own DIY Sequencer to the push, program the parts there and than record it over to the push. As I want to get better in playing the grid-keyboard, thats a fine workflow for me now, but if I ever am going to want more sequencer-based workflows, Push 3 wont be the tool of my choice.
And btw.: In that case, Ableton wont be either. The only reason I am using Ableton, is the Push 3. If that falls away, BitWig (for me) is superior when working with external modulation sources and targets.
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Considering you say your budget is $1000 I’m assuming you mean you’d be getting the controller Push.
I do think at face value from the sequencer side of things, comparing the Hapax or Oxi to the Push 3, the first two are definitely stronger sequencers.
On Push you can sequence the notes, sort of do some parameter locking, type stuff, and there are MIDI effects which you can play with. But that’s about it. The Hapax blows the Push out of the water when it comes to sequencing directly from the hardware itself.
But once you pull up Ableton on the computer, especially with Live 12, the editing possibilities with midi notes is about on par, if not better in Ableton. And there’s hundreds of Max4Live sequencers out there as well that expand into the more esoteric realms of sequencing.
My workflow tends to be to live perform the foundation of a pattern with the push and maybe do the parameter locking style of automation, and then get into the nitty gritty on the computer.
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Does anyone know if the cv outputs of Push 3 SA are sample accurate (like the audio outputs)? Or do they have some jitter in terms of timing, like the midi outputs?
Let us know if you find a way to do it, or if you just give up. I limited to one electron box because I think it will be complex enough - octatrack is just live sampling.
I don’t think you are requesting anything that is very particular to your workflow. I guess that not being able to change pattern immediately is some sort of a technical challenge, but I can imagine that there might a few thousands of us that want immediate pattern change :).
Another hack that might also give you some live control is having the program change sent from Ableton and then <Stop+play> on the elektron master clock device - if you are using one :). This would restart the pattern from beginning so it should be the new one? You have to have your timing right but this might be doable?
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Sounds like I need to figure out what I really want.
I’ve had pretty much every hardware groovebox, and several multi-hardware setups. I briefly used a daw with a maschine, but was tethered to a desktop. Now I have a laptop and am curious again.
Thanks @Uija and @OldmanChompski
I do like hardware that will limit the amount of mixing and mastering needed, I have not developed those skills. I’ve convinced myself I don’t care about the details. I’m happy when I listen back to my tracks, but I can tell they are only good enough for my ears… which is fine, I know, but I might occasionally want other people to enjoy as well.
Soooo only using Ableton because of Push, you say. I do like bitwig. I used it also briefly with a Midicake ARP and that was tasty fun.
I’m drawn to P3 for expressive playing and mpe. Then again, I’ve had a Deluge paired with an mpe controller before, and did not like it enough to keep it. I thought the P3s single mpe membrane might be different, you know, sliding notes and stuff. But I suppose I could do that with legato and/or LFOs.
Currently my only gear is a Woovebox, which was a nice departure to just have something tiny to use on the couch. The headphone connector came unsoldered and the romance is over.
The Woovebox has a chord track that you can make other melodic Tracks follow. As a non-classically educated musician, this feature sparks joy. Oxi one has this feature.
On the other hand, Hapax (and polyend play +?) have midi effects.
OK, so, coming to terms that I definitely don’t need/won’t know how to use advanced (or even basic) features for sound engineering/mixing on any device, might just be best to go for an oxi and bitwig.
I will need to sit on this… at least until I forget about it and the gas dies down.
Playing with MPE is so fun. Paradoxically I disabled it because I’m just not accurate enough to play in tune with it enabled. The slides really do add a level of expressivity that I didn’t realize I was missing. Is that worth $1,000? Honestly I don’t know, but probably not.
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Damn, that is tempting.
I do want a Linnstrument but if this can “do more” in a sense and maybe get me Live 12 at a upgrade price…
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Isn’t there a setting where you can stay in MPE mode but make the initial hit on the pad perfectly in pitch no matter where it lands and only bend if you slide from there?
I haven’t tried it yet, it was on my list of things to do when I first switched on the machine but I ended up really liking the default mode - bit more difficult to play, but most of the time I find the slight pitch variation very pleasing and for want of a better word organic. Still need more practice before I can reliably hit exactly the amount of “detune” I want though, especially when playing chords.
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Yeah that’s the mode I used! Sorry I wasn’t clear, I meant I’m not accurate enough to use the pitch slide functionality in its default state. I did have to disable MPE entirely to make the Push play nicely with my Syntakt though - it was choking ST pretty badly.
I will say, when it comes to pads that even without MPE the Push 3 pads are the best pads I’ve ever felt, previously it was the Maschine 3 / Maschine + with Push 2 in second.
I’m pretty sure someone wrote a script to get the push 3 to work with Bitwig. That said I’m not sure what mixing and mastering tools you’re talking about here, about every DAW comes with compressors, limiters, and EQs. Ableton has all those things as well. I will say just from that perspective it is very nice to adjust levels from the hardware itself.
And being able to mostly focus on the hardware while making a beat and then when it’s times shift back focus to the computer. With an Oxi One or Hapax set up you’re going to be switching back and forth from the hardware to mouse and keyboard a lot. That can still happen with the Push but if you learn Push’s hardware you can really get into a flow where the initial ideas of the song are all written on the hardware and it allows the user to focus on that step of the process first.
And it’s never too early or late to pick up on mixing techniques. Honestly the one thing you should focus on is making sure your levels are good. I think people look more scientific than it really needs to be.
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Solid points everywhere.
I will try to stymie any GAS for now and wait continue saving towards a p3.
The points about other hardware sequencers being fine but requiring a lot of back and forth between kbd and mouse is a huge consideration. probably wont want that.
comparing P3 pads to linnstrument pads is wild. I’ve only had experience with Roli seaboard blocks and thought it was alright. always thought pads would be easier.
Seems almost idiotic to not go for the 599 deal on ableton’s reverb page for a new P2 with Live 12, but I know I will only GAS for a P3 later, so might as well just keep saving for now.
Will probably steer clear of other sequencers unless I also go back to hardware synths.
I appreciate all the input, y’all!
/edit/
I’m also wanting to dig into Ableton features and workflow while I wait. Any recommend yt channels that are not influencers? just bare bones, factual information, is what I’m looking for.
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Seriously, the ableton YouTube channel. Lots of really good tutorials and primers.
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