Publishing works with copyrighted samples

Anyone have experience doing that with BMI, ACAP, or whoever? My PRO rep informed me that my recently submitted registrations will probably be rejected because, while I listed the sample sources, I didn’t complete the composer’s percentage shares. (yeah I know, I’m being a good little angel and all that shit but I respect the biz and am trying to do this right to avoid trouble.)

She told me I’d have to contact the publishing offices of the sampled works and get them to agree on a composer’s percentage, assuming they’d agree to it at all, and if the publisher was one of the industry giants they’d probably insist on publishing the thing themselves. Hmm, that doesn’t sound too promising…

I know most people don’t bother with this, especially “underground” electronic types like many of us, but I’m in talks with an indie label about possibly releasing some of my stuff, and I’d like to do this above-board on the slim chance that my material gets the attention of the legal sharks.

I work with a rapper… he had lots of troubles trying to clear stuff.
even after he had go-ahead (giving away any profits he might have made) youtube kept pulling his stuff, because they claimed it had copyrighted material. so he had to proof to youtube that it was legit… which was another hassle… you need a real person to judge it… and well that can take weeks or more)

So yeah, your publisher is correct, if you want to use samples of others… you really need to get them cleared and have written contracts that give permittion in your hands and have digital copies to show to others in case of shit…

my rapper got so frustrated and all with it… that he just scrapped the songs all together and made me promise “whatever you make for me… make sure you dont use samples even if you got them cleared and whatnot” So he gets totally synth-bases stuff… or stuff I got from rely-able paidfor sample-cd’s … (not sample libraries I got somewhere on the internet, cause i cant garantee those are legit)

Damn.

Thanks, man.

Here’s what I’ve been told by respected industry dudes.
Don’t worry about it, if someone calls you on a sample… that means you are making a lot of money off the song and are getting pretty big time!
You can just deal with it when it happens. There will probably a cease and desist and you’ll just have to stop selling the track until you work out a deal.

Horrible “advice” on so many levels.

I would totally ignore that advice but hey - if it means you’re making a lot of money off the song it also means you can afford a big lawyer and/or incur costs of any potential payout.

Horrible “advice” on so many levels. [/quote]
Name 3 levels.
People aren’t going to sue you unless you are making a lot of money. If your label isn’t big enough to handle your sample clearance than it’s probably not going to be a problem. You can play it safe if you want, my point is don’t limit yourself based on being scared of he sample police.
Lets say you get sued for every cent you make off the song.
You’re still better off because you made a big song, and people will be looking forward to your next one.(then get that money!)
People think Earth Wind And Fire are going to take your house for a sample, its not going to happen. Are they going to hire lawyer for their 20% of the 400 buck you made? Playing devils advocate to a certain degree here as well, I’d hate for the OP not to hear my side of the issue.

I’ve heard the same advice as VF: “If you’re selling less than 10,000 records it’s not worth it for them to sue”

Look at something like J Dilla’s Donuts: the whole thing is made of samples, some of them clearly recognizable, but I’m pretty sure nothing on it was ever cleared. In general, I doubt indie labels are clearing samples unless something seems like a sure hit. But I have no first hand experience of any of this, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.

Not that fear of a lawsuit is necessarily the only concern…trying to make sure the people you’re sampling get a share is the ethical way to go. Too bad it seems difficult to negotiate.

Horrible “advice” on so many levels.[/quote]
“robotunes” is SO correct in that this is horrible advice…it’s called stealing and if it was not, why would you be worried or asking about it?
Try to put yourself in the other shoes and if you say you would not care if someone stole/sampled your music and instead consider it flattering…well, you are only fooling yourself, fool!

  1. It’s not just you who’s getting sued; it’s the label. they don’t want their good thing screwed. endangering someone else’s reputation and income stream ain’t cool. Especially for other artists on the label’s roster who’ve been doing their thing and all of a sudden can’t get their stuff published and promoted because the label’s getting shut down over a lawsuit the artists had nothing to do with.

  2. Let’s say you’ve worked for months on that album for the label and you ship it to them. They refuse to release it because no samples are cleared. You’ve just wasted your time and theirs.

  3. Say your tracks do somehow get released and blow up. Then you get sued. You think you’ll make your money and album 2. But when when you come out of the studio again, what label is going to touch you? And who’s going to listen to your new stuff, which sounds nothing like your old stuff because you’re no longer using samples? See the above poster who said the rapper he was working with had to go with all-synth stuff.

  4. It’s cool to reference old hits and deep grooves. It’s far better to BE ORIGINAL. there are SOOOOO many rights-free samples available out there. Musicradar.com alone has 46,000+ samples to download. Use your creativity to warp those into something totally your own. Why do you need to sample? Don’t just rearrange someone else’s thoughts. Come up with your own.

  5. Just think of the software behind Shazam that can listen to snippets of music and match it to one song among the millions and millions of songs that have been released. In other words, the chances of not getting caught get slimmer and slimmer every day.

  6. Earth Wind and Fire might not sue you, but their label will, no matter how broke you are. Record labels are notorious for suing people who make no money by file-sharing. If labels will sue them, you can bet they will go after an indie label.

Obviously everybody on this board is creative and motivated, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. With all the cheap/free DAWs and samples available today, there’s no need to snatch somebody else’s work and claim it as your own.

Um…yeeeaaaah…seemed to hurt his career terribly.

If your music ideas are fresh and people want to listen-everyone wins.

yeah, I knew someone was going to bring up danger mouse. i think he’s the exception, not the rule.

Good points @robotunes but it all boils down to being smart. Sample creatively and with integrity, thus to hide the origin of samples. If you’re making a record for a label that will have problems with you using samples…don’t use samples. If you are a hip-hop head sampling stacks of wax for a tape label, maybe just risk it.
My sources for this advice are very sound, and nobody has to agree with them, if anything I would say play it safe, but don’t let anyone get in the way of your creativity.

On a side note, I got a note from my label asking if there are any uncleared samples in my music. Their catalog is being put on iTunes. I did’t use samples on those albums, because I planned for it.
My last album was heavily sample based and i gave it away for free…go figure.

@namnibor I have had my music sampled! I was pretty pissed and e-mailed the dudes band camp. I never heard back and the song is still up, but I don’t care. I learned something, it is flattering, and 20 listens on this dudes band camp is really not robbing me.
If Timbaland jacked my shit for the new JT single I would be pissed though!
But if Timbo jacked my shit, I’d probably get a lot of attention and opportunities.

Hiding the origin of the samples (from an artist) is stealing-period.

Artistic integrity from sampling comes from doing something completely original with the sampled material-and crediting the artist you sampled, not trying to hide shit by slicing and lacing samples with effects and filtering etc.-and saying it’s yours.

That shit should get a clown bitch-slapped-AND sued.

And personally, I won’t ever support someone like that nor will I mention them to anyone.

We all gotta do it our own way.

These two things seem relevant to this thread:
http://dangerousminds.net/comments/sting_puff_daddy_andy_summers_and_the_case_of_the_misplaced_bajillion_dolla

http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=20

To be fair, the U2/Negativland thing was technically about the artwork, but I don’t think the lawyers took kindly to the sampling either.

All that said, I still don’t think it matters that much. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? If you’re altering your samples into something unrecognizable from the original, or if you’re releasing material that doesn’t break enough ground that the lawyers catch wind, I really don’t think it matters. But IANAL, and you are still taking a risk if you don’t clear your samples.

I also think that a lot of the initial reaction against sampling had a racial element (lots of old white people who didn’t appreciate their work being used by black hip-hop artists) that has subsided over time. Copyright law is such a mess that a lot of things seem to slide by, but if you make something with an obvious sample that gets enough attention, you can probably expect to get a call about it.

what happens if you have tons of uncleared samples from people on different record labels and they all come after you? do they then fight amongst themselves for the profits? because my understanding and I could be wrong, is that you don’t pay a fee, but forfeit profits.

(below is just un-informed opinion/thinking out loud)

in a way, it seems like declaring samples is a bad idea because what if you forget some? i know when i sample i don’t always keep note of it and often scrap the track and reuse a re-sampled portion of it that is many many samples. but then since you declared some, there is blood in the water, so to speak and they might go looking for more.

personally, i think modern copyright laws have stagnated music by limiting cross pollination of styles. most of the lazy sampling i’ve heard has been from people that could afford to do it legally. it seems like any time anything over about 10 years old gets sampled it actually renews interest and improves sales. anyway…

audio to MIDI is fun, but it isn’t the same…

Thanks for all the commentary.

The piece in question is initially going to be on a very small-run EP, in a market half a world away from the samples’ point of origin, and frankly I’ll be very surprised if the piece gets any attention at all. I honestly don’t think it’s that great, and I don’t believe it’s ever going to be any kind of club hit.

Meanwhile I’m waiting to get an official rejection of registration from my PRO (again, I was told it probably would be rejected since I didn’t list numerical writer shares, only their names).

IF I do let it go ahead without permissions, and it does become the surprise club hit of 2014, and a team of big scary lawyers comes after me, I’ll let everyone know.

good luck buddy :slight_smile:
I keep my fingers crossed you have more fun/better experience then me rapper friend.
share a linkie if you can… i am sure people are curious…