OT throughput mixer audio quality?

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#29

putting my popcorn down to throw a spanner in the works here, in the thread i may have linked to (with dead audio link) and as far as i can recall it, the individual blind testers all had varying beliefs about which file was the original one (notionally the best, but not necessarily so) and a few folk picked different files and maybe a few thought there wasn’t much in it, my recollection was that there was surprisingly little in it (COMPARED to my expectation) in terms of the body of the sound of the main elements, but that there were trace elements that revealed the processing in the noise floor or more particularly in the sound beneath(or around) the instruments, that takes a bit of deliberate effort to listen to (i.e. around the sound and not the sound), but i guess it’s also possible that subliminally those differences are there for certain material - on the whole i was pleased with the high usability of the OT especially as i’ve certain usage preferences and my expectations were not realised, especially wrt the non-negotiable -12db drop at the inputs.

the second point to make about some of these tests is that it’s not going to be possible to say (unless you’re in the room) that analogue synth X direct to your genelecs doesn’t sound affected when taken through the OT, we can’t share those files(obv) - so taking a reference CD wav or 24bit similar into the OT and comparing the source with the rendered may be the only viable test to share - but afaik, the usability of the OT for me was niggling me before but isn’t now - though i’d capture anything important to me by another method in preference to the OT, and let’s not forget that for a large part of the user base output from the OT it is being shoved through some sub-optimal stretching-rerendering process anyway

i also recall that i was able to tell the original when i shuffled playback randomly with the test file i put together, but as i said, i had to listen intently to the room-space in the recording to tell

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#31

My point remains that as I am certain that you are the type of person who likes to be “right” and are probably suffering from a lack of dopamine as you get older, I don’t know why YOU don’t get off your bum and go put some proofs up.

The fact that you won’t and run around doing little “gotya” posts makes me think that you’re not entirely confident that you can.

It is possible that you are more of a dense musician and your ears don’t really pick up on the frequencies that are lost in the way that dynamics interpolate and are lost in the conversion of the OTs inputs.

In which case, I am sure that what you hear is correct, especially once you add a little drop of the constant MY ELEKTRON BOXES ARE SO NEAR PERFECT THAT THEY MUST THEN BE PERFECT coolaid, that anyone reading this forum sees you regurgitate every thread or two.

How we perceive sound is subjective. However, I have a treated studio, a bunch of very nice outboard, and I A/B between Focals and Genelec 8040s. What do you base your opinion on? Your ears?

Because it sounds to me as if you are saying that without some kind of wave form evidence, ears are irrelevant. In which case, I challenge you - seeing as how you litter this board with so much faecal interjecture - to put YOUR proofs up.

Otherwise just fook up and handle the fact that people have a different opinion to you and - here’s the tough part for you to handle - DON’T ACTUALLY HAVE OR CARE TO PROVE IT TO YOU.

PS if you’re going to bring PHIL101 into it - which is always a bit of a yawn in an electronic music forum - here’s a reminder about “burden of proof”, as I understand it in relation to modern academic society; the burden is on the person to disprove the current and established, proven theory.

My point is that the notion that the OT has transparent converters and EVERYONE or even a MAJORITY of people agree with this is spurious and disingenuous. It’s not proven, there’s nothing I’ve seen that proves this. The links you put up don’t speak to your argument, they are not even your own posts.

From what I read on public forum - let alone my own personal opinion - people believe that the OT is either adequate or inadequate, but only an idiot would call them transparent, or someone who isn’t used to using nice outboard, or who has poor ears, or an untreated monitoring system.

For me, the OT is adequate as a sampler and line in in some instances only, and those instances are dependent on the required fidelity of the audio I want out the other side (which has a lot to do with the balance of the track that it is going into) or when I want to use the particular character of the machine for musical purposes.

If I want a transparent capture, I’d never go to the OT -and most people who have the option between the OT and decent outboard will agree to this 9/10 times.

And for the record, I love my OT - but I’d never use it for audio in sampling. I COULD use it, and I could also use a Saffire preamp/converter also, and they sound about as sh*t as each other to my ears.

#32

And yet there you are on Gearslutz, and here, and wherever else, stating your debatable opinion as a fact…

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#34

Hey buddy, if it’s okay for you to state your opinion as fact, then I can’t see why you would be upset if the same thing came back to you from a different angle.

And actually, no, if you do a search for my user name you won’t find me knocking the OT very much at all, on this forum and any others TBH, and you will notice that I will add a disclaimer when I do as to how usable it is.

What makes me laugh is someone thinking that somehow there is this obvious massive consensus as to how amazing the OT is in it’s primary use - AUDIO SAMPLER.

There actually isn’t.

It unleashes creativity and maybe that’s what most people need to get into new terrains. But I don’t suffer from an absence of creativity - it’s not my problem.

#35

Somehow I think that, even without your assistance, I’m going to be okay in this world…

Catch you later! Looking forward to your valuable “wave form” proofs, when they do finally come, seeing as how you are so big on them as opposed to ears.

#36

not sure if i’m in the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pe0rNieL-Q, but it’s become a little undignified ‘gents’ - at the end of the day it actually doesn’t matter which assertion you stand by if it doesn’t hinder your usage, and tbh, to bring it back to the OP, seriously, just try it, what do YOU think ? that’s all that matters

#38

Well that got heated. I sold my OT, and I wouldn’t have been interested in staging tests to prove it anyway. But to take it back to the OP’s original question:

Will it retain the frequency range / sound quality of an expensive analog synth when its used as a mixer in a live-rig?

Or retain the bass rumble of a TR-808 etc ?

While the OT is generally adequate as a mixer, I think you might notice a difference specifically in the cases you mentioned. Try it out and let us know!

#39

Lol, sometimes message board fanboys be sounding like:

If someone says they hear something, asking them to “prove it”… Weak, lol

I am an OT loving fanboy myself, btw, so no diss intended.

I was gonna +1 on KOTARE and jamrod, but I only agree with their right to subjective opinion, not really their ultimate points in light of my own experience.

I dig my OT, but do work around certain limitations (known to me per my own workflow/experience) as I would with ANY piece of gear.

#41

I’m not disagreeing with you really Baddcr, we are usually are on the same side of opinions here.

However, I have perceived sound degradation from original material to the playback sample myself in recordings directly to the OT (mostly in dynamics), I don’t need to prove it to anyone (it’s opinion), and nothing anyone says (or posts tests of) will convince me otherwise, because I heard it with my own ears. It’s my perception and the reality I work within.

For you and I, we are carrying on happily with the OT, others decide to move to something else, or like in my (and apparently KOTARE’S) case, identify our perceived limitations and work around them.

OP should run things down with all these opinions (and test data), and decide for himself based on his own experience.

#43

In another topic @Lampmeister says :

@Lampmeister my dear, would you please be kind enough to put your comparison right here ?
This weekend, I found my synths particularly soft, and it was the first time I put them in OT’s inputs…

#44

Firstly, I don’t want my synths to sound “particularly soft”.

Secondly, I have absolutely no interest in trying to persuade anyone else that the way I do/hear things should be the way they do/hear things. I really think everyone here has the intelligence to experiment for themselves and figure out their own best way of working.

Thank you.

#45

Me neither ! I want that what is in is what is out !

I had always thought that OT was transparent, but yesterday I began to doubt it… Reading your words made me think there may be something to investigate.

I don’t know why, but from your words I assumed that you had some waveforms or such kind of objective mean to compare.

It takes time, not only intelligence to do so…

#46

If you are asking if the OT can perform as mixer with good sound, answer is emphatic YES. A lot of people doing this and doing it really well.

Agreed.

I sold the OT and kept the RYTM, the sweet audio of the RYTM is gold and I might get another OT. someday.

I find the internet cannot answer my original question or concern… its not really the ‘sound’ its the feel of the bass / air moving from the subs that is what I am questioning. And only from a raw analog source versus digital processing through an OT.

Either way … an interesting and serious concern for a performer but not worth stressing about.

:slight_smile:

#47

I’ve never heard AD conversion that didn’t take something away from the signal. That said, I’ve never heard the top-tier converters, so…

And tbh I’d be worried if an ex BBC-approved mixing console with huge headroom and broadcast quality electronics would not sound better than the OT’s post-conversion mix.

What I can say though - I was also concerned about the OT’s sound quality before buying one. I find it totally acceptable however, remember to leave ample headroom and you should be good. Maybe not platinum-record-grammy-winning-mix good, but certainly good enough for most live venues.

(disclaimer: haven’t measured or A/B’d properly, opinion based on subjective experiences)

#48

My personal experience with my Octatrack in my listening environment is that using Direct I have not noticed any difference but when using Thru machines I have on occasion noticed a difference. It’s not huge and you have to have directly A/B 'd to notice. I have never purposely checked the fidelity of the OT and have only noticed on the odd occasions I have switched from direct to Thru (I normally always use Thru Machines straight away because then the fader can have some affect on my midi tracks).
It does not bother me or stop me from using Thru machines. I did not carry out extensive tests to try and remedy the situation apart from removing all FX and zeroing the LFOs on the Thru track and confirming no Scene activity (to no avail). Plus I confirmed direct and thru levels were equal using the meters on TotalMix.
If asked to describe the difference I would say it sounded like a slight dip in the mid/high frequency range. One occasion I remember running a basic drum track from Electribe to OT, Kick and HiHat sounded the same but the snare sounded slightly “repressed” via the Thru track.

#50

I’ve tested (objectively measured) the conversion of the Octatrack quite extensively - it is at least on par with an RME sound card. However, do take note that FX loaded onto a slot may color the sound (albeit only slightly) - for example the filter will remove some extreme upper harmonics. Be mindful of this if you want playback or playthrough without any coloring at all.

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Noob questions
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#51

Is this something you can expand upon to put flesh on the bones? One aspect of OT conversion throughput which strikes me as slightly unhelpful in the chase for fidelity is the immediate -12dB reduction at input and subsequent boost (if sampling), that can’t be great for noise floor considerations. Especially if you’re only wanting to capture a single stereo pair optimally rather than feeding it to your MOTU/RME etc

On that note, i think it would be fantastic if you could say a bit more about any i/o facts/figures/insider-insights etc … just for the common good … there’s always a lot of chit-chat on here about exploiting the i/o(inc headphone outs) :wink:

#52

The vitriol is a major turnoff from an otherwise fascinating topic. Would you speak this way to someone’s face? I bet you’re a road rager too.

I think it stands to reason that any ADA conversion will result is some loss of fidelity. In some cases this could certainly be difficult to percieve. Simon’s input should lay to rest the question of degree. Nuff said, I hope.

Anyone care to share their own best practices/process for gain staging to maximize transparency and headroom? It seems something of a dark art to me.

#53

OK, I listened the recording carefully, and it’s total crap.
Nothing to do with my dear OT, more with the pb being located between the keyboard and the chair…
:thinking:

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#54

I hear a solid difference between sound of external synth connected to the ext mixer and to the OT (even levels are correct). OT adds some colors and removes something from source signal. So I prefer to use external mixer in my studio and lives. Or just connect OT to A4’s inputs. But this difference is obvious only when you make one to one comparison of raw signal and signal passed thru OT’s inputs. For live I do not think that this is a big issue. If it is super important to have the best sound on stage I’d buy a cheap portable mixer.