Octatrack swing vs. MPC swing and others

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Friends at the forum,

I’ve got a Tempest and a Tanzbar, and an Octatrack.

I’ve owned an Analog Rytm and an Analog Keys. Loved them both. Sold them for various reasons. You know how it is.

Anyway - I get the feeling that the swing on the Electron machines, Octatrack specifically, don’t quite measure up to the swing of the MPC:s and their siblings. As I work with the Tempest and just dial up the swing, there seems to be more going on to make it more groovy than when I dial up the same value on the Octatrack. Obviously, there’s nothing wrong with a good swing on the Octa, but the Tempest, the Tanzbar and those MPCs just feel more groovy.

However, I’ve glued my ear to these machines so hard for so long now to figure out if I’m just imagining things or not, that I can’t really tell.

What’s your experience here? Do you experience differences in quality in terms of swing in Elektron machines compared to others? I’m about to pull the trigger on selling my Tanzbar, it sounds great but I want the sounds, not the sequencer, but every time I put a swing on it, and compare it to the Octa, there’s just seems to be more going on within the Tanzbar (and the Tempest, which I’ll never sell so that doesn’t matter).

Anyway - what’s your opinion on this? Thanks.

//Andreas

#2

i cant give my input for the mpc’s, but i also own a tanzbär and an octatrack.
i love the sounds of the tanzbär very much (especially kick & toms), but the interface is just a pain in the ass for me. so much that i barely used its swing function - the lack of a display makes it almost impossible to handle for me.

i ended up triggering the tanzbär from the octatrack, which worked pretty fine, as long as working with one kit (pattern), as pattern change did not work for me. i usuelly use the octatracks swing (set at about 54-56 / 123bpm) and feel quite happy with it.

#3

No offense, but I think this is all in your head.

All these boxes do exactly the same thing. There’s nothing, absolutely nothing “magic” about the MPC’s swing. But don’t trust me, just read http://www.attackmagazine.com/features/roger-linn-swing-groove-magic-mpc-timing/

#4

Andreasroman, I definitely agree with you. All Elektron boxes are the same in this way. They have a much more sterile swing.

I’ve owned almost every drum machine & the tr909 / mpc60/3000 have the best swing. Not in your head at all.

Anyone who says this is in your head has no idea wtf they’re talking about.

1 Like
#5

I agree with Roger - it’s a very basic calculation.

HOWEVER - the discrepancies (or ‘magic’ maybe) in some mpc’s swing could come from two things:

  1. midi triggering and the serial nature of midi. if sequencing an external device, the various mpc process serial midi data at different rates. this is a miniscule amount and probably not much of a contributing factor. plus at that point you’ve got the midi responsiveness of all devices in the chain that factor in.

  2. trimming of samples. my guess is that you trim the samples on the computer before loading in the octatrack? or some other sort of transient detection (auto or manually) slicing function?
    one thing that happens with older mpcs, especially ones with no waveform display, is that you trim your start points a little closer to the ‘sound’ vs the visual ‘start’ of the wave. this could make your drums sound ‘tighter’. so maybe the samples in your octatrack are just a little laggy.

you could test this very easily by sampling the tempest or something into the octatrack, setting up the same regular sequence on both it and the original device, and start tweaking swing.

also keep in mind that sometimes swing percent doesn’t start at 50 as it does on mpcs (think maschine)…it’s just an arbitrary value with the same underlying calculation happening underneath…but some machines might call the swing range (on an mpc from 50-75) 0-100%…knowwhatimsayn?

#6

I have an idea guys. How about we record some 4-bar-loops with same percentage setting and then in ableton extract the groove and analyze the result. Then we visually see, whats really going on… ?

#7

A large part of the swing is the speed of the CPU.

For example I started out on an MPC 1000 and noticed that with my playing style and how tight my samples are truncated that the 54% 1/16 setting is what I like to give it my own groove.

Then I got a 2000XL and I noticed that I still truncate my samples the same way and 54% was a bit too much swing for me because the processor felt a little slower (66mhz?) and by the time I was done with the loop and overdub came in the I would have my drums a little too loose for my liking. 52-53% was the swing that made me comfortable with a slightly slower cpu that went into overdub mode.

When I got the MPC 60 the cpu was way slower than I was used to and the jump from first loop into overdub felt so slow. 51-52% felt good enough for me. I recorded one shots directly into my 60 with fine tuned truncation and that groove made me happy.

Now that I own a RYTM it feels like my 2000XL and I’m happy to swing it between 52-53%. Does it have the MPC swing? No, but with the p lock option and the ability to change the start and endpoints I can still fine tune the beat to my taste. Does the machine feel sterile with the groove? No!

Even with an Ensoniq EPS my playing style can help compensate for it’s timing correction. You will need a few takes to get it to groove the way you want, but it works.

I’m sure that anyone can make the Octatrack groove a certain just by adjusting the sample start and end point at a fine level to adjust with their own playing.

1 Like
#9

Well, ok, so maybe the algorithm for swing is essentially the same.

But then it’s the hardware, as some guys point out here, that the code calls on. Just like a rendering engine could be exactly the same in code, it doesn’t behave the same on different machines.

Latency and frame rate are issues depending on hardware. Surely swing with such an exact and precise demand for having a particular sound, is affected by the milliseconds that hardware differences might generate. And our ear, just like our sight, is a very sensitive instrument, tuned to detect even the slightest discrepancies if such exist.

In this case, it’s really not a case of Elektron swing being broken or bad. I just have a feeling it’s different from my Tempest and my Tanzbar, which both feel just feel more disco.

So isn’t it just possible that the hardware might have something to do with it, no matter the code base that triggers the swing?

#10

Again, no offense, but “CPU speed” or “slower hardware” also has nothing to do with this at all.

You really can safely assume that the firmware for all the boxes mentioned above was programmed and tested to have really tight timing.

Keep in mind that the software that’s running on these machines has much more direct control over the hardware than a modern computer or smartphone/tablet OS. When you have complete control over the hardware, it’s actually not hard at all to create a sequencer with tight timing, even with a fairly slow microprocessor; the Atari ST, that’s famous for its tight MIDI timing, only has a 8 Mhz CPU. That’s at least 175 times slower than your iPhone… :wink:

#11

Maybe. However, most of the “magic” is attributed to the use of the MPC as a stand-alone sampler where the bitrate of the MIDI protocol doesn’t apply.

This is actually a good point; trimming “by ear” is likely to give you better results than doing so visually.

#12

Maybe. There are a lot of other factors I can think of that would have an impact on the results. To do this meaningfully, you’d have to have a single researcher with access to all the equipment you’re interested test this methodologically.

#13

which mpc? the ot’s base timing is better than mpc 60 / 3000 when it’s not pushed to extremes whilst playing static slots etc it’s one of the tightest available in digital hardware. The 2000 xl is tight timing wise but the clocks have consistent swagger to and fro so it has an inherent groove… add swing and it plays off that base groove so it will sound different. probably just different swing algorithms? actually it would be nice to have another decimal point for swing on the OT like swing finetune, for the lower numbers anyway

#14

t,

I’d like to think that you’re right, but I draw from experience with the Keys and the Rytm as well, not from samples but from their actual analog voices.

Having said that, as you say, it could all be in my head, which is why I posted this. I’m just not sure.

You could argue, if you’re not sure, then what’s the problem? If it’s not that obvious, then is it really a problem?

Maybe not. But it’s the one thing that’s holding me back from selling my Tanzbar. I just wanna dig into this issue before I decide, and besides just trusting my own judgment, listening to what other people think is a way to reflect on the question itself.

But yes. It could be just the matrix messing with me.

#15

What I think is going on is that people develop strong preferences for one piece of hardware over another when they make music.

There are so many factors that define how you get a great groove out of a specific piece of hardware, ranging from how the case looks, how the material feels, how the pads and buttons and knobs respond, to how the firmware reacts to parameter changes.

This is for a big part emotional, but it’s also practical; some machines will for example have a parameter response that make it much easier, or shall we say more intuitive, to dial in just the right amount of swing.

What I’m trying to say is the difference is not in how the swing actually works, or is implemented, but there might be a difference in how easy or good or fluid it feels to get the right amount of swing out of it for whatever you’re working on at that time.

#16

t,

You make a lot of sense. Thanks for the input.

And I won’t be selling the Tanzbar. As you say, for what I’m working on, that machine just get its right on the spot. I won’t be spending more time wondering why, just accept that this is the case and the Octatrack I’ll use for other things that get just those things right, and together they’ll jam just nice.

#17

Fascinating thread, what’s real/perceived ? Suggestion: clock two devices, an Elektron and Akai from another clock source, feed them same/similar sounds and identical swung patterns, record a mono from each into a stereo device and have a look at that file

Keep it simple and use one track w one identical sound

I know that the Elektron quantisation correction scale reads 0-127, but there are only ~23 discrete steps on that range, so sometimes you may be adjusting, but the timing may not be altered ! Fwiw

#18

I agree 100% with the OP. I actually use to own a Tanzbar, but sold it for the RYTM. One of the first things I noticed was the difference in groove. All you have to do is program a bunch of 16th note hi-hats. The RYTM has a very precise timing, where the Tanzbar just grooves more.

It’s not imagination. I’ve owned:

Studio 440
MPC 60/3000/1000/500
SP1200/12
Sequential TOM

And have played many others. They all have different grooves. People who haven’t tried these instruments, and only speculate are really doing a disservice to those looking for answers.

I just ordered another Tanzbar because of how important that sequencer groove is to me. So there, I’m offering you first-hand experience, not speculation.

#19

I think from the MPC there is something to be said of the velocity and note repeat in addition to swing. All of this the OT can do with a different way of user input. The OT doesn’t have the pads but you can use an AKAI controller to do so.

#20

Forgot to mention that I’ve owned a 909 & 808 in the past as well. I wouldn’t listen to anyone who’d deny that those instruments possess a certain groove. Just lookup a YouTube video of the TR-606, it has a groove.

#21

mpc is different to my ears…

i dont like the swing on the electron boxes but am able to get a loose feel from either using micro-timing or quantization at around 64-80

i actually prefer the “swing” i can get on the AR/OT … just not using the swing function