Nasty jittery MIDI sync with Reaper, any workarounds?

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

I’ve been having problems syncing MIDI between my Octatrack and Reaper.

I’ve tried using Reaper as the clock master but then the Octatrack sounds a bit jittery/off time (you can see the BPM constantly drifting around +/- 1 bpm on the Octatrack).

When I tried using Octatrack as master/Reaper slave then Reaper would keep losing sync every few seconds.

From hunting around online it looks like Reaper’s support for SPP (which is the only MIDI clock type that the Octatrack supports?) is pretty dodgy. The glitchy timing is really bothering me so I’m looking for a workaround.

Is anyone else out there trying a similar set up? I’m tempted to stop using any type of MIDI sync and triggering start with a MIDI note (from Reaper to the Octatrack) but this sounds a bit of a pain and I’m not sure if it’d drift without a sync signal. Any tips very gratefully received!

#2

That is normal. Can you hear tempo variations?

Song Pointer Position : this works with Arranger mode only and let you start at a defined position. Not a sync clock.

OT only use MIDI CLOCK standard.

I think you can use OT Transport (Start / Stop / Pause) without Clock in MIDI > SYNC page.

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#3

Non-USB MIDI interface. The jitter lives in how modern operating systems handle USB. I’ve been using an Expert Sleepers USAMO for a couple years now and I can’t overstate what a big improvement it made over USB MIDI timing. Before that I was using an MPC2000xl as my master sequencer and sending SMPTE to it from the DAW if I had to sync it, and that also worked well but the USAMO is a lot more flexible (and much cheaper these days, although it cost more than I paid for the MPC to be honest).

Solid discussion of jitter and other MIDI timing issues here even though it’s looking at the opposite situation (controlling software with MIDI hardware). A lot of the USB stuff is actually in the comments:

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#4

ERM Multiclock. Using the audio sync source from the ERM plugin, jitter is a very rare +/- 0.1. It’s shocking how tight things keep. Even using the Multiclock without a DAW it is the tightest clocksource by far that I’ve ever seen.

The Expert Sleepers device works in a similar fashion but without some of the bells and whistles of the ERM one.

I’ve seen people comment that these types of clocks are just useless wastes of money because “people just need to learn how to use their DAW instead of throwing money at a fixable problem”. They’ve never used these devices or they would know that the difference is night and day. These devices solve the very problem you are having.

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#6

Yeah, depends on your needs for sure. If you don’t need all of the features of the ERM you can save a LOT with the USAMO, or if you have S-PDIF digital i/o already you could start an Expert Sleepers system with an ES-40 and an EXX-8MD in the smallest Behringer eurorack case for around half the cost of the ERM, which would give you a lot of room to grow.

All viable options.

There’s a clock/sync firmware for the MIDIsizer MidiGAL that will analyze and remove jitter from an unstable clock source and regenerate it accurately but when I installed it on mine it turned out the jitter from my system was so bad that the MidiGAL couldn’t consistently fix it (running Windows 7 for compatibility with some old hardware and it’s notoriously extra jittery). Still a useful firmware for troubleshooting and converting MIDI clock to analog clock, but wasn’t enough to fix USB MIDI problems for me, and if you don’t already own a MidiGAL (which is very worth owning if you use MIDI harware very often!) and can’t build the kit it would cost more than a USAMO anyway.

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#7

Thanks for the super helpful responses everyone. Yeah it definitely sounds out. It’s subtle at times but I only really noticed it when I had a session without the DAW connected and everything sounded so much tighter. I’d gotten used the the glitchy/sloppy timing.

It looks like the separate clock devices are the way to go. Unfortunately I’m in a ‘use what you’ve got’ phase for a while after buying too much stuff but at least this will save me god knows how much time trying to track down a problem that probably can’t be solved with the existing gear. It looks like my PC and my ears are particularly prone/sensitive to this problem.

For now I’m going to try and only sync between the Octatrack and Analog Four and just trigger start from Reaper to the Octa and see if that works ok without drifting so at least I’m not making sloppy sounding/drunk robot music. If it doesn’t then I might have to take the plunge sooner than hoped but I think I’ll definitely do that long term anyway.

Looking forward to not getting annoyed about this and wondering what the hell’s going on!

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#8

Yes looks like there are separate transport settings that you can enable without clock so I’ll give that a try.

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#9

How does my set up work flawlessly without a erm midi clock?
I must be using a different kind of midi to other people?

Telling people to spend $1000 Aus dollars, when it could be a simple set up issue seems crazy to me especially if they are only using 1 device.
Midi 2.0 will be here this year also

#10

I am happy that your setup works flawlessly. Mine, and many others, do not. The solution for myself has been the Multiclock. By using the audio source to drive the clock you are bypassing any issues, correctable or otherwise, that cause crippling jitter.

While, I am no computer expert (I’ve only been in data networking and IT in genral for 15 years and I don’t mean this in a shit eating sarcastic “I know more than you” way), I am more than comfortable chasing out performance issues on my systems. The only answer to the question of MIDI jitter was a clock that syncs to an audio signal. It bypasses any problems introduced from a USB-MIDI pathway. I had to pay $800 CAD for mine but it was worth every penny. Easily the most important piece of my setup. It allows me to marry Ableton with all of my external gear flawlessly.

If you have some insight on how to address this person’s specific issue, it would be more helpful to outline how you are setup and what pitfalls you’ve overcome with your system to address MIDI jitter. There are a myriad ways theses systems (computer/music equipement) can be setup.

As for MIDI 2.0? Is this going to be backwards compatible with all legacy 1.0 equipement? I’ve not read specs but I find it hard to believe that this would be the case so waiting for a next gen. spec to cure a problem of today isn’t a particularly helpful suggestion. The money I have invested today in my setup doesn’t become any less valuable because of MIDI 2.0.

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#11

Lucky you and your setup :slight_smile:

Seems like some PCs/setups are more susceptible to this than others and the guy I do music with thought the timing sounded fine but it sounded rubbish to me.

#12

Could you please go through how you got reaper to slave to the OT? I didn’t think that was possible.

#13

I had trouble getting it working at all at first but in the end it was by setting the sync source (in Reaper, right clicking on the play button) to SPP: All inputs and then changing the MIDI device setting in Reaper preferences to ‘High precision’ (the default was to let Reaper timestamp events). That’s from memory so the text might differ slightly.

Oh and I think I had problems getting it working through a chain so ended up connecting the Octatrack out directly to the PC MIDI interface. It’d sync after a couple of seconds but would lose sync intermittently at anything higher than around 120bpm.

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#14

Thank you.

#16

This Reddit post helped as well - https://www.reddit.com/r/Reaper/comments/ednykb/external_timecode_sync_spp_reaper_as_slave_issues/

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#17

There could be many reasons the clock is drifting or not working properly,
And people have have different setups computers etc
My suggestion is to try everything before you rush out and buy an Expensive external clock.
It could be conflicting midi settings, or audio latency, daw settings, soundcard settings
Could even be your computer etc

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#18

Yes I’m with you there but I’ve been battling this for a while and have tried to optimise my PC, use different MIDI setups, etc. for fair few hours and time’s not free. I’m definitely at the point where around £150-£200 to maintain my sanity is worth it!

Or at least now I know there’s likely not to be an easy fix on my PC so I’m going to try and just run them independently (with only start synchronised with a note on command) to at least try and get some solid music recorded for now before spending any more cash.

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#19

I’m using pc also.
I’m using overbridge clock from A4 then sending it via midi cable to Octatrack.
Overbridge clock is super tight, after that it could only be audio latency or daw settings.
That’s all I can suggest, but good luck it can be frustrating

#20

Thanks for that tip, I haven’t used the overbridge clock and also have an A4 so I’ll give that a go as a last resource before I go into manual mode!

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#21

This is a horrid problem! I used to struggle with this a huge amount (specifically REAPER and MIDI clock sync with the Octatrack).

Getting an Expert Sleepers USAMO definitely helped a lot but I found it was still a bit temperamental. It’s good once it’s locked in but starting and stopping in REAPER was a bit hit and miss I found.

The USAMO with Ableton Live worked a lot better for me, but actually what’s really sorted my problems out once and for all is moving to Mac from a Windows PC.

MIDI sync from a USB interface which supports USB timestamping (I have an Edirol UM-880) on OSX is so good that actually there’s no real need for me to use the USAMO.

Obviously this isn’t necessarily the cheapest advice but I wish someone had told me this years ago and I would have bought a Mac and saved myself years of tearing my hair out…

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#22

Glad we’ve got a little support group going on this. I thought I was the only person suffering this pain :slight_smile:

Not knowing it was such a problem with the hardware is worse though as the fixes I tried were unlikely to solve it. I’ll try Dan’s option as a last resort and then see if I can get any joy with letting them running independently. Even if they drift after a while at least I can have a rock solid inspired minute or two to chop up!

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