My DT mix is beating the DAW mix, some questions

I did a live recording of my DT via overbridge and captured all the audio in the OB app. Mains out was the complete mix from the DT with reverb/delay/comp.

I think I was hitting the compressor fairly hard because the separated tracks definitely were more spikey in volume, but thats ok because I did that on purpose to raise and lower energy.

Regardless I tried mixing in the DAW and so far can not capture the magic of that live performance. All I did to the live take was run it through cassette tape to warm up the sound and it sounds awesome.

So now instead of doing a DAW mix that is different than the DT’s I am going to set up a delay and reverb send that mimcs the settings I made on the DT and then compress the 2 buss the same as well. My typical DAW mix process was just not even close to the stereo out of the DTs.

If I cant get close I will just send the release as is and hope no changes are requested to it.

Just curious if you all have experienced this and what plugins you used to come close to the DT delay/verb abd compressor?

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I’m not an expert but I suspect it has something to do with the summing process. Your DT tracks are summed internally (analog?) in perfect phase relationship. Your multitrack DAW processing has possibly disrupted that phase relationship and your DAW summing (digital) locks any phase issues in place.

I experimented with multitracking my setup as 20+ tracks and found my mixer’s stereo out sounded about 1000x better than anything I could do with all those tracks in the DAW. Now that’s all I do.

Good luck sorting it out!

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Yeah there is definitely something with the summing and that is typically the case on most groove boxes.

But even then I have mixed stems out of grooveboxes before and gotten great results. I am going to start the mix from scratch and keep it super simple with a verb and delay that mimic what I did on the DT and a compressor on the 2 buss.

Its a cool problem to have since the original performance may be the release. I love that, but in a perfect world I’d like to be able to clean up some frequencies and be able to make some edits. So I will keep at it.

At this point just curious if anyone has found a software compressor that can come close.

Funny enough I just found this thread with the exact same question:

@1zerozerozero1 what did you end up doing?

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I’ve experienced something similar in the past. I think it has to do with the fact that the reverb and delay in the Digitakt are pre-compressor, so those signals are also getting compressed and adding energy. Sometimes having all of the individual stems and mixing them in your DAW can just add more room for error and allow you to ā€˜fix’ all of the things that were actually working in the main stereo mix, just because we have the ability to. I always would record the main stereo outs when using OB and often times would also just end up using that signal instead of the individual track outputs, just because it seemed to have some magic that I wasn’t able to reproduce.

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Good to hear I am not the only one. Yeah there is some magic for sure. Also just the humanity of a live performance can really be special, especially since I change the reverb decay and delay feedback and other things during the track to do transitions and make different patterns hit harder or softer.

I definitely will attempt again to replicate this ITB and really study the compressor and fx settings on the DT. If it doesn’t work, oh well. But if it does, I will have a pretty simple mix and that is also pretty awesome. Makes my life easier.

yep, this is the great difficulty of working with hardware. things never quite sound the same.

i try to follow these points when using DAW to finish tracks from the outboard gear:

  • minimal sound design in the box: for the most part you want your patches sounding right in the stereo mix. don’t rely on software to impart additional texture or frequencies to the sounds. don’t try to make two sounds that didn’t fit together outboard fit together in the box. EQ surgery always sounds like shit.
  • write parts outboard, arrange parts inboard. this includes adding FILLS and such between parts. this gets me thinking creatively about using the DAW from the jump.
  • for me at least, the DAW’s specialty is widening the stereo image. I try to get as much width as I can from the stereo mix, but there are some send-return tricks I do in the DAW to fill up the upper frequencies on the edge of the stereo image. that’s where the DAW shines, IMO, so i try to mix with that in mind as the ONLY audible ā€œenhancementā€ im adding in the DAW.

edit: almost forgot, for me the most important thing was basically eliminating all outboard compression. DT’s compressor is a beaut, but i can never replicate its exact pump using plugins so i have stopped trying. honestly, compression is a bit overrrated as a mixing tool anyway, so it is best to avoid it, for me at least, until the mastering process, at which point i am working on a final mix bounced to an entirely new DAW project, and probably bounced through a secondary outboard FX loop

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I get this all the time with my Rytm, A4 and Syntakt… I try to ā€˜future proof’ myself with the individual files via OB, do some work on it, then compare to my ā€˜master’ mix out of the machines, and they’re way better and glued.
The individual files tend to sound lifeless in comparison.

Even the master stereo mix via OB sounds better, so it’s not just about summing/analog AD/DA.
Obvs the temptation is to be able to arrange later on, but it’s just as easy to record a bunch of mix/mute variations over the master mix and use them if needed.

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Honestly I’m not going to work that way. Defeats the entire point of using the hardware in the first place for me. One of the hugest advantages is the ability arrange on the DT and not later in the DAW. I want that live performance feel, it is the soul of house music.

I used to think about the DAW way too much when I used hardware and it just resulted in me selling the gear and using the DAW 100% of the time. I will see if I can make it work with the stems and if not ill just keep 2 tracking out.

My mix in the DT sounds awesome and all the parts fit together. So that is not a huge issue. I just don’t like barely using the hardwares features just to prep for DAW work, it’s not why I use the hardware.

I’ve been having a similar dilemma here. I’m running DT, SN, DN with a TR8S and Hydrasynth plus iPad for a couple of plugin synths. Lots of stuff going on from not that many boxes compared with some setups.

I get everything so it sounds great coming out of hardware into stereo mix. But then, I think, I don’t know how this will reproduce on different systems and maybe I’d like the option of high passing some of the tracks a bit more surgically than I can do on an Elektron box. And I’m layering 2-3 kicks so maybe it would be good to have the option to balance the kicks against each other with a bit more precision. And a couple of the sounds out of the Elektron boxes really need some stereo modulation effects to come alive… DT mono samples for example and please please pretty please Elektron can we have a stereo modulation effect in the ST in a future firmware…

So, OB it is… well over 30 multitracks recorded into OB standalone (prefer doing it that way than OB as a plugin in the DAW). That’s a max of 12 tracks from the ST plus 2 external tracks plus FX plus main. 8 tracks from DT plus 2 external plus main. 4 stereo tracks from DN plus external plus main.

Import 30+ audio tracks from OB into DAW. Trim, colour tag and label each track (I use UAD Luna as my DAW now BTW but obviously it’s the same process for any DAW). Rearrange track order so kicks are together, pads are together etc. Gain stage each channel for each track then set up sub busses so I’m mixing with 10-12 faders not 30+. And add insert effects and send effects where need to supplement the FX returns printed in the main L&R track from each of the ST, DT and DN. Then start to mix the track and eventually get to something that’s ready to master.

Phew. It works. Lots of options in the DAW to get the mix right. But takes a lot of tedious work (I’m essentially remixing my own multitracks in a way) and a fair amount of time.

Then I listen to the stereo output coming straight out of my hardware setup and think… hmmm. It definitely isn’t worse than I’m getting from my OB-into-DAW remixing approach. And maybe it’s somehow better sometimes, and just needs a bit of tweaking (a bit of Luna plugin tape saturation, some gentle EQ tweaks for the mix as a whole before off to Izotope for a rough master) and job done.

Either way, going OTB to ITB is more flexible for sure, but also takes a lot more time. And may not even lead to that much of a better mix….

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I haven’t been using OB much lately, just focusing on my mixer’s stereo outs. But for a while I was running a hybrid setup pretty regularly with OB, and I found the best success when I was focused on the mix in my DAW from the get-go, while creating whatever jam or track I was working on, including busses and effects. I found I got the most mileage by first identifying what I wanted to process primarily in my DAW (I admit to loving Ableton’s Drum Bus…it can get super crunchy), and then whatever tracks I wanted to handle there muting from the main outs in OB. Then I just really focused on using whatever other tracks I had in my Elektron boxes with the main stereo outs.

So, for example, I’d split out the first five tracks on my DT into OB and pipe them through a Drum Bus. Then the next three tracks, maybe a stab, something textural, and a lead, I would run through the DT’s main outs, relying on the DT’s delay and reverb. For my DN, maybe I would pass one track through OB that I wanted to process in Ableton, like a pad, but keep an arp on the DN’s main outs.

Organizing my tracks according to this hybrid approach and making the sound design component integral from the onset kept the sounds feeling very alive.

I suspect I’ll get back to it again at some point, but for now, having added an ST and AK, I find that I can isolate elements plenty with hardware only, and don’t have to faff about at all in the DAW. I suspect at some point I’ll go back to playing more hybrid again.

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Personally I find it great that you can get such a good sounding mix straight from these hardware boxes. Especially the Elektrons, which have a pristine sound even when you stay in the digital domain.

If it’s almost as good as the same track mixed via a DAW, then you could take the stereo mix and ā€œupgradeā€ it a bit with M/S stereo processing, dynamic EQ and some multiband and/or parallel compression.

In the end a comparable result with way less effort. And you can play the track live too and it’s probably more fun!

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I’ve tried Overbridge for a bit and the flexibility it gives is great, but it only works for me when I compose and mix directly in the DAW which I tend to do not as much. Multitracking a pattern after the fact and having to redo all delays, verbs and panning is a complete buzzkill.

Two stereo pairs out of the Octatrack is where it’s at for me at the moment. Just enough flexibility and the right amount of crunch and ā€˜vibe’. And I can always record some ā€˜b-roll’ to be able to arrange a bit after the fact.

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Job done. Ship it.

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Awesome responses in here, glad I am not the only one who deals with this, but I may have found something here.

I imported the DT audio into ableton, selected all clips and boosted the gain +12. I then grabbed an IR of the reverb setting I used in the Dt. I figured there was no way I’d nail the same sound in a plugin. The only negative with the IR is that I can’t do huge decay washout transitions, but thats ok, I just made another send with Supermassive on it for that.

Second send is Echo delay. I copied the delay settings I had on the DT. Echo is perfect because it even lets you send into reverb like I do on the DT.

So basically now I have everything running through effects at the same level as the DT and sounding a lot better since I have done almost nothing to the tracks themselves.

The final move is to put a compressor on the 2 buss that is set similar to the DT’s. I am not sure what that would be. Maybe the Glue compressor would work, but I put on the Shadow Hills mastering comp and hit it hard. I mainly am using Discrete mode but I’m messing with it. I am taking close to 5db off and boosting the gain so the master volume is peaking at around -2db. Fast attack, just letting a little through and a release thats a little slower than that. Basically how I set my DT compressor.

I will also try the glue comp as well just to see how it hangs.

So nothing else has been done, but it sounds really good already. I am A/Bing with the DT stereo mix and it’s right there now. So now I can tame some of the stuff that I am noticing - lots of 1k and the hats are a bit loud, so I can fix that now. I also hit the bass with trackspacer and the low end is a little tighter as a result.

Basically I copied the DT and just went super minimal. The only other thing I did was add sketch cassete to warm up the sound a bit, add a touch of hiss and saturation. I did the same to the DT mix too. Really warms up the sound of the DT well if you are into that.

So worth a try. Resting my ears and ill get back to it and update with any other findings.

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Would you be willing to share that Ableton session? I’m curious about your approach.
I’ve tried things like these before, but I haven’t quite got there, workflow-wise.
Still looking for a method that doesn’t kill my vibe.

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Thanks for sharing your process, I’m just getting started going from Elektron boxes into Ableton, nice to have an example of someone doing it in detail. Luckily I only have DT + DN.

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I am sending this tune off so I can’t do that but down the road post release I can for sure. Happy to answer any questions or do screen shots for now…etc.

I can say that this method doesn’t kill the vibe, only enhances it. The reasons are because when I sit down with the DT I use it in standalone. I will be in the studio with it or lounging in my chair with headphones. But I get the track sounding good in the DT and I don’t worry about the DAW or anything else. My #1 goal is to make the tune sound good inside that little black box. This is far more enjoyable since I use the DT effects and compressor without worrying about Post production in the DAW and really get a vibe going.

I then treat the arrangement like it is a live 2 track recording. So for that, once I dial in what I like, I typically make a few quick notes on what I want to do in each pattern, pretty much like being in a band and throwing the chords and progression up on a board so everyone can see. I do not use song mode because that is a vibe killer. Because then you are pre planning the pattern changes and I would rather let that happen by feel.

I just go with the flow and manually change patterns - I find that yields the best arrangements by far. For me it is the best way to arrange because it is live and organic. I typically nail it in 2-3 takes so that’s less than 20 minutes for a complete arrangement done. Many people spend days in their DAW moving blocks around, I am all about speed and being in the moment.

So this brought me to when I made my topic. My mix out of the DT L/R honestly sounded quite good but I want flexibility because a label may ask for a short mix or even say ā€œhat or kick is a bit loudā€ and little tweaks like that. So ideally I’d like to be able to fix that without relying on eqing a stereo mix.

So with the audio dragged into Ableton (I multitrack in the overbridge standalone app. Much faster and easier this way for me) I select all the tracks and just boost the gain up. +12 seems to work quite well. I already have mixed the levels on the DT, which I also recommend because each pattern can have different levels. So it is very easy to bring up or down the energy by boosting a few sounds in volume.

At this point I have the gain of the stems all at a good reference level. The mix is still the exact same, just no compressor or effects. And obviously the magic of the DT is what that master comp does plus what the FX can do. So I basically copied the setup - a compressor across the master and then 2 FX busses set up with delay and reverb. The best solution to get that reveb sound I found was to ping the DT with Ableton IR plugin. It has a sweep option that lets you capture the sound of that exact reverb and setting in the DT.

I basically use the external mixer on the DT in stereo mode and set the reverb to max and then let the IR maker do it’s thing. It makes a L and R file for the verb and then I drop those into the IR pro reverb plugin. That really helped a ton since the reverb is such a big part of the sound.

For the delay I like the Echo since it can feed into reverb like the DT’s and has all the same settings. It is not the exact same but it is close enough.

The final thing is the master bus compressor. I will keep messing with different ones, but main thing I do is hit the mix fairly hard like I did inside the DT. I mimic the attack and release settings and ratio. I also have the DT stereo mix on a separate track so I can level match both and compare them that way.

Main thing to note is I have yet to touch the individual tracks besides boosting the gain in all of them the same amount. No busses or EQ…nothing.

Then I just listen to the mix and once it sounds as glued and punchy as the DT, i then do some small tweaks to the individual tracks (like panning ). For example I lowered the hi hat volume a little and I do some dynamic EQ to a few sounds. I think I added a flange to the hat, mixed in pretty low. I added mild phaser to a chord stab. I also lightly compress sounds that jumped a bit in volume from pattern to pattern, just to keep them more controlled. I also put trackspacer on the Bass and that really glues it to the kick. The most drastic thing I have done is inserted a second delay to a lead sound, so I can do some modulations there as well.

But all of that took like 30 minutes since the imported stems were already pretty well leveled out from the DT, I had done a lot of filter movement, added some OD and bitcrushing…all those little details were done on the DT, where it’s super fast and easy. So instead of building the mix from scratch, I am mainly just processing it on the master buss with compression and dropping the 2 effects that sound likeDT reverb/delay on the FX sends.

Last thing I do which is personal is I put Sketch cassette on after the compressor on the master and I tweak the default mode to taste. I find it wamrs up the mix and adds some thickness and lofi vibe. That is just what I like though. I also did the same thing to the DT stereo mix.

Sorry for the long post but that details everything I have done so far. It has been far more successful (and faster without losing the vibe) than trying to rebuild the mix from scratch like I was trying to do when I started this thread

That is the combo I aspire to have one day. I feel like adding the DN would really be the perfect match to sync to the DT.

Yeah I agree with your findings. May want to mess around with my technique above and see how you like it. It’s WAY faster and the results are a lot better.

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Quick update from my end. I was able to make a really strong mix in the daw. Ended up being a lot better than the dt, even though that mix is totally acceptable as well.

I think a few days of working only on the dt and hearing its quality sound took some adjusting back before I could mix itb as well as I expected. Probably wont be a problem going forward. Dt is such an awesome machine.

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What did you do in the DAW that makes it a lot better? Mostly EQ and compression?

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Thank you.
This is incredibly helpful.

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