MPC Thread : MPC Live - MPC X - MPC One (Part 1)

[JohntheSavage]

Yo!

Okay, I just narrowed down what’s causing the gratuitous overwriting of my project files, and figured out why it might not be affecting some of you: i.e. it seems to be a direct result of saving/resaving a program before resaving the project, regardless of whether or not any changes have been made to that program or the project itself. And it will happen, repeatedly, even without rebooting the MPC or reloading the project, as long as you have saved/resaved a program first.

In other words, if/when you save/resave any program within a project, even if no changes have been made to that program, and you then resave the project, the MPC will proceed to overwrite all the samples in the project folder, even if no changes have been made at the project level. It’s also worth noting that there seems to be no way to resave a program either, without the MPC overwriting all the samples in the program folder; and again, this happens every time, even if no changes have been made to that program. In both cases, the result is that the files in the program/project folders gradually become more and more degraded with every save.

If any of you, kind folks, would like to confirm this on your MPC’s, I would be much obliged.

At any rate, I’ve now spoken on the phone with a tech at Akai (who was very helpful, by the way), and he agreed, pending some tests of his own, that this behaviour is not optimal, and that it very likely could result in cumulative file corruption, as I’ve experienced. So, assuming that this is not just a problem with my MPC (which doesn’t seem to be the case), sufficed to say, this affects all of us significantly. It’s definitely something to be aware of, at very least, if you don’t want your samples degrading over time.

We may actually be getting somewhere here… (fingers crossed).

Cheers!

[tobee]

I confirm I can reproduce the problematic behavior by first saving a program: when saving the program, samples are collected, but they’re collected again when saving the project. Nice find, @JohntheSavage

[wouzer]

I sold mine after some month
Love the sound, love the pads
Made good music with it
But the instrument doesnt amaze me

Back on A4 ar
With Pioneer djm 450

[Yorgos_Arabatzis]

We’re lucky to have you here too John!Nice find…I’ll have to check it…Never had to save/resave a program…

[JohntheSavage]

Thanks, Yorgos!

Ya, I’m working with really large programs - kind of like projects unto themselves - wherein it can take days or even weeks, and therefore countless resaves, just to finish the program, never mind the project. Hence why I’ve been running into this issue more than most.

Regardless, this is a pretty serious oversight in the MPC’s file structure because, no matter what, whenever you resave a program, you’re unwittingly making a copy of copy of your samples (even if all you did was turn down your snare, or tweak an FX send, or what have you); and, in turn, that seems to force the project to do the same, effectively making a copy of a copy a copy, etc. Over time, this repeated (and unnecessary) overwriting of the sample files is causing data corruption… Not good!

So, this needs to be fixed at the program level first. Otherwise, the project seems to save only what has been changed since the last save, as you’d expect; until something gets changed (and subsequently resaved) at the program level, which then causes this ripple effect.

For now, I’m just thankful that I don’t have a broken MPC or a completely corrupt project. I mean, push come to shove, I’ve still got uncorrupted copies of all my samples, so I can swap them out for the corrupt ones, resave the program and the project one last time, and theoretically everything should be fine. What a pain in the ass though (sigh).

Anyway, thank all y’all for your help, eh! I’ll keep you posted when I hear back from Akai…

Cheers!

[v00d00ppl]

Did you keep maschine MKIII or did you sell that too? I have a MKIII on it’s way. Those pads felt good to the touch

[canister]

if i get what your are saying… you believe there isn’t some sort of bug with the live os and that the file “degradation” is actually due to rewriting of edited samples?
are we talking about digital systems here or vhs cassettes? how could that happen, just a careless misplacing of a 1 or 0 here and there? is this the case when working with images too? i like to use procreate on my ipad and whenever i re-save my work it’ll overwrite the whole file. same when working with photos. are these files slowing going to be bit crunched? from my limited understanding, bad drive sectors are what will cause corrupted files or a os bug.
just asking… i’m curious

[tsutek]

overwriting a file in itself is not dangerous per se… I am pretty sure this specific issue is partially caused by the fact that the MPC OS (in standalone) converts all audio to 32bit floating point.

But glad to hear you identified the issue! I am sure Akai will see how dangerous this can potentially be and a fix will be forthcoming…

For now, you can avoid triggering this bug if you do any other editing operation to the project than saving a program, before saving the whole project? Am I getting this right? So basically all you need to do is to nudge, say, the sequence BPM up and down one BPM vefore hitting save to prevent this resaving issue from manifesting?

[Purusha]

That could indeed explain why I, for one, haven’t hit the issue.

[wouzer]

Sold it all
Its all cool, but not for me
Mostly because i dont like scratching the surface and realizing i dont have the time to internalise the new process
Elektron gives me enough to explorer, i already understand the Elektrons but slowly i know more about sound design and performance possibilities

[jb]

maschine mk3 is great, I wish it was standalone but I can completely deal with it for the amount I get from it. came from MPCs before too. its a bit different but if youv’e got some decent plugins you’re gonna love it

[v00d00ppl]

I already have a maschine studio, but now that my MPD232 is dying on me I need a spare maschine / pad controller for my other jam room. With all the sounds of komplete 12 CE i think I am ready to play my hearts content this weekend.

[tsutek]

what about maschine and a small surface tablet? quasi-standalone

[JohntheSavage]

For now, you can avoid triggering this bug if you do any other editing operation to the project than saving a program, before saving the whole project? Am I getting this right? So basically all you need to do is to nudge, say, the sequence BPM up and down one BPM before hitting save to prevent this resaving issue from manifesting?

No, not exactly. Saving a program, at any point during your session, will first overwrite all the files in the program folder, and then when you resave the project, inevitably it too will overwrite all the files in the project folder. It doesn’t matter what order you do that in, or whether you change any other parameters first.

The only way to avoid this behaviour altogether, is to never resave your programs: i.e. build your program in a single session, save it once; then any changes that you make from there, save only the project, not the program.

Of course, this makes for a very isolated workflow, and doesn’t accommodate everyone’s needs (certainly not mine); but it will keep your files safe, pending a fix.

Cheers!

[JohntheSavage]

if i get what your are saying… you believe there isn’t some sort of bug with the live os and that the file “degradation” is actually due to rewriting of edited samples?
are we talking about digital systems here or vhs cassettes? how could that happen, just a careless misplacing of a 1 or 0 here and there? is this the case when working with images too? i like to use procreate on my ipad and whenever i re-save my work it’ll overwrite the whole file. same when working with photos. are these files slowing going to be bit crunched? from my limited understanding, bad drive sectors are what will cause corrupted files or a os bug.
just asking… i’m curious

First of all, I don’t “believe” file degradation is happening—it’s happening! There’s no question about it, and I’m in the process of demonstrating this to whom it matters, so we can move on from the ambiguity of it all.

Secondly, data corruption happens more often than you think; especially in systems wherein data is getting written and rewritten constantly. Most of the time, however, we either notice it straight away (i.e. a file won’t open, a download fails, a program crashes, etc.), or it’s inconsequential and otherwise too insignificant to notice at all. That said, most programs that are designed to manage ongoing projects, wherein many incremental changes are necessary and continuously resaved (i.e. pick your DAW, Photoshop, video editing suites, spreadsheets, etc.), avoid potential corruption by reading files directly from disk, creating “layers”, and essentially working, non-destructively, from the original file, until such time as you choose to export a final copy. At which point, you’re making a new and autonomous file (ideally).

We do see this safety net built into the MPC software: i.e. when you save a project, without first saving a program, the project only saves the incremental changes that have been made to parameter data since the last save; and it otherwise leaves the samples in the sample pool untouched. This system exists for a reason! However, the problem at hand (call it a bug if you want) is that program files are not handled this way. Instead, when you save a program, it recollects and overwrites all the sample files destructively. So, if any corruption occurs, however small, you’re now stuck with it; and that corruption will be carried forward and compounded with every new save.

The bigger issue is that, every time a program has been changed and resaved, the project is now compelled to recollect and overwrite all those files, again, as well. It’s gratuitous and unnecessary and a recipe for disaster in the long run.

Anyway, it is a thing, it is happening, it is a problem, I have proven it where it counts, and I am not going to reiterate or reword any of this again.

Thanks again, everyone, for your deductive reasoning and constructive conversation… Much appreciated!

Cheers!

[jb]

That could be quite nice. I saw someone on NI forums made a stand they could slot the laptop underneath which was pretty cool. There’s another one on there where a guy actually built a computer into his mk2

I want to show you guys my new project. It is another fully standalone maschine. Inside It has i5 processor, 4GB ram, ESI MAYA audio interface,128GB SSD drive. It also has a battery, so I can work few hours without cables. On the back it has two USB 2.0 ports, HDMI out, audio IN/OUT, headphone out with potentiometer, power switch and power socket for charging. Back plate was made form thick aluminium sheet (cut by CNC).

[djadonis206]

That’s pretty cool

[Purusha]

I do wonder, out of interest, how the Mac/Windows hosted software MPC works in these scenarios…

[xparis001]

Hi John, and everyone else.

I’m Dan, Product Manager for Akai, and I was sent here from a gearslutz user. I’m super new here, so I didn’t see a way to send a PM. is it possible you could contact me directly? my email is dgill@akaipro.com. thanks!

[canister]

greeting Mr Dan