Let's talk about software distribution

The Lounge General Discussion
#21

I have a suspicion that the “problem of open-source” is a factor in this.

Modern software couldn’t exist w/out OSS, but most employers are unwilling to fund it. Those that are willing usually fall into a trap of corporate-sponsored not-really-OSS. I think the dilemma of distribution/ongoing support, and the dilemmas of OSS funding are deeply linked in a way which has not been addressed well to date. We (and especially large corps with huge budgets) have been externalising costs for too long.

I don’t have a model to solve either (although I think about it quite often). I fully expect that to solve either, we need to solve both.

#22

I work at a place w a couple of successful oss projects but few external contributions. The issues pile up and don’t affect your for profit and the oss becomes a drag on productivity. Even if we did have external contributors, the code reviews alone drag productivity.

#23

There are more annoying aspects in modern world software:

  1. Mandatory account registration just for basic package download.
  • Focusrite requires you to create an account just to download the drivers for the soundcard. Ridiculous.
  • VMWare requires you not to only have an account, but also to provide a lot personal and work information just to download free VMWare Player for personal use and so on, not talking about other enterprise software.
  1. Annoying auto-updates. I know it may sound weird, but this endless stream of automatic updates, notifications and urge for the features you barely using - is very annoying to me.
#24

That’s me! Here’s the direct link: Favorite plug ins, worth buying 🙂 - #605 by trickyflemming - Equipment - lines

The absolute best installer I know is AAS. They have a button on your account page that simultaneously downloads all owned plugins and libraries (with optional NKS files) into one installer. The installer is also pre-linked to you, so you don’t need to install any licenses.

Kilohearts is next up. Man, their installer is slick and very easy to sign in to.

Melda 15 and Plugin Alliance have solid installers + activation. The installers can install as many plugins as you want once. You need to activate them after installation, but activating your license once activates all available plugins.

Arturia and Native Access are also solid. If you’re installing many products in Native Access, you’re going to have to click a bunch. Thankfully, you can queue stuff (unlike the iZotope installer, which drives me nuts).

These are all from the perspective of someone who has way too many plugins (since most devs do NFR trades with each other as we’re all hopeless addicts), so each of these handles batch installation well. Each of these is maybe overkill if you only own one plugin from each (except for AAS, which I feel is optimized for every user).

What’s funny is that this is excellent if you own one or two plugins. If you have his whole lineup, you’ll have to download each installer along with each license file. You then have to activate each one manually. Ultimately, it’s a tricky balance as you have to find a solution that works for both the single-license owners and the completionists.

Also, I still don’t understand how Spitfire works if you’re trying to install on multiple machines. Man, that one is arcane.

4 Likes
#25

That’s an illusion (IMO). The developer is not “solving a problem for the user” here; instead they’re “discouraging the user from using similar software from other vendors”.

1 Like
#26

Interesting - Panasonic Lumix also has some tricky hoops they make you jump through just to download the software that lets you connect to a computer. I had to type in my camera’s SN several times just to get the d/l link.

#27

I find this a very interesting and intriguing topic/development, I’m not on board with it as well. I think the best way to combat the subscription model economy and all these forced account signups is to not participate in it and sometimes accept an inferior alternative. What I personally do is email or leave feedback on the website letting them know they missed a sale and why. I’ve never gotten any replies so maybe it all ends up in /dev/null but I do it anyways.

Software distribution ideally gives me options, also depending the platform of course. If a developer gives me the choice to buy in the App Store or directly on their website, I will buy from the latter even if that means I have to click thought a warning popup from Apple. I don’t know if it’s allowed to have different prices, but it may incentivise people to buy directly from developers if there’s a little discount. After all there is no 30% Apple/Google tax.

In other subscription models like Affinity vs Adobe there are also file formats to consider. I can make artwork in Affinity but if a publisher only accepts Adobe formats then I may still have to pay for a month of Creative Cloud if exporting/converting isn’t doing the job right. Luckily with audio proprietary formats isn’t really a thing.

I still remember certain software suites would require (maybe some still do?) hardware fitted inside your computer or a usb dongle. Hardware DRM I guess, not the best but certainly better than having to be online and depend on servers being online in order to activate. I won’t start about iLok/Akai, but it has caused quite some headaches lol.

To end on a positive note, what I do is support (software) makers that do it right. Even if the cost is a little higher they get my support. I prefer paying a (small) developer more to get a product I actually own. Specially for music stuff I want to be sure what I buy today will still work in 5 or even 10 years time. My music rig isn’t connected to the internet and I also incorporate some retro hardware from time to time which after decades still works great. MSX, C64, Atari. It just works :wink:

5 Likes
#28

What’s funny is that this is excellent if you own one or two plugins. If you have his whole lineup, you’ll have to download each installer along with each license file.

Valhalla plugins, as you’ve taken it for example, have like 10 different plugins. Its like, 30min to install them all properly and whipe out the installers ? I dont see how installing bloatwares, that touch stuffs I never ask them to and install plugins at my place like im too dumb for doing it myself, is more convinient :thinking:

#29

I think it’s basically inevitable that software goes subscription everywhere. It costs too much to make and users expect it to keep working on newer systems which costs money to do and is opportunity cost against new things.

If you don’t like it, buy hardware. It works “forever”. Plenty of analog and digital synths and effects out there.

1 Like
#30

I’m not sure if I understand the argument, as the installation managers occur after the marketing stage.

Take Komplete 13 as an example. K13 definitely competes against other companies by covering all of the bases (samplers, synthesizers, sequencers, orchestral, sample libraries, effects, etc.) and putting them into one package. And, once you’re in the NI ecosystem, I agree with you there that it becomes a bit of “Well, I already own Kontakt, so I’m not buying Falcon because I don’t want to juggle two workstation plugins”. And there’s also a bit of “Well, I have all of these Maschine libraries that I got for ‘free’ so maybe I should consider the hardware…”

However, marketing aside, for the people who have already bought K13, installation is a more complicated concept then simply “chuck everything onto my hard drive”. There are diverse genres represented, and the sample content alone takes up more space than most laptops have. So, the solution that AAS has that I love only works because their products take up very little space. Downloading their whole lineup is just a 300 MB file (there are, of course, separate installers if wanted). But NI has to accommodate many types of customers who have already paid, and that’s the part that I’m saying is complicated.

The gold standards on my list (AAS and Melda) don’t install anything other than the plugins. AAS doesn’t even install a manager (everything is in a regular installation file). I just set up a new computer two weeks ago, and it took me longer to install my 10 Valhalla plugins than 300+ plugins from Arturia, Plugin Alliance, Melda, AAS, and Kilohearts combined since I had to do everything manually.

Melda is also a great example of how complicated it is also for the developer. Melda is mostly one guy (Vojtech) who is managing something like 90 plugins. If he had to build and verify each plugin for each patch, it would be a nightmare for him, and he’d probably have far fewer products. So, every user has to download a 500 MB file that contains all 90 plugins. Is it optimal for someone who just wants to update one plugin? Not at all. However, it’s a way to manage all of the complexity and it means that he can focus on better products with more frequent updates.

There’s also the case of Audio Damage, who have succeeded even after removing the DRM from their plugins entirely. You still have to run individual installers, but that’s the only step.

Yes, a lot of the blame here is on Apple, with a reasonable amount also going to DAW manufacturers (especially Steinberg, who seems to constantly break JUCE’s rendering somehow). We’ve had to do an incredible amount of work to keep everything working with the constant river of external, needless updates. This is why M4L is a great platform: you leave the complexity of compatibility to someone else so that you can focus on upgrades and bug fixes instead of… notarization? Reaktor, Voltage Modular, and Reason Rack Extensions have also had zero friction for me as a developer. All of those have been write once, maintain with fixes for bug reports.

1 Like
#31

I always figured all the hassle, extra authorization, extra software, subscription models etc. were all anti-piracy efforts. I figure, from a business standpoint, the easier, faster, and less energy the customer has to put in to buy something- the more sales you’ll have. So I don’t think it’s necessarily something the developers want to do, it’s something they’re forced to do to in order to cut down on people illegally downloading and not paying. I’m sure these software companies lose billions a year to piracy.

#32

I agree with this being a great experience.

#33

it took me longer to install my 10 Valhalla plugins than 300+ plugins

As I dont see the point of having 300+ plugins anymore im clearly disconnected from your POV.

it’s something they’re forced to do to in order to cut down on people illegally downloading and not paying.

According to what I recently saw in the pirate’s hold, it doesnt seems like an effective way of spending cash.

#34

By way of contrast… I own a legit copy of reaktor 6 bought in increments from my original version 4. The install broke at some point and despite wasting about a day installing and reinstalling various packages via the installer program I never got it to work. I found the whole process of installing gigabytes of software onto my ageing laptop so unpleasant that in the end I gave up and just uninstalled the lot. Native instruments software install in my experience is so much of a nightmare that I’d rather forget about it than try and install.
I switched to vcv which by contrast is a piece of piss… I agree with the op that Valhalla is the gold standard

#35

Tough subject. As a (now-retired) writer for the music tech industry, I’ve been dealing with the various available delivery, installation, and authorization methods for two decades, and have installed many hundreds (if not thousands) of products.

I have some great products for which I paid a lot of money that are currently not installed. Why? The hassles. Like @paulito, I am annoyed by software that requires me to download and install another piece of software just to install the bit I wanted in the first place (Arturia, Steinberg, etc). I am also annoyed by software that ‘updates’ just to provide a bunch of demos of their other products (Slate Digital, UA).

I aggressively dislike challenge/response copy protection, and have been around long enough to see it backfire (BIAS Peak, anyone?).

I also dislike USB hub-hogging dongles. However, despite once being extremely anti iLok, I don’t mind it so much anymore, as it allows me a convenient way to move from computer to computer. I don’t love it. But I no longer hate it.

Subscription, though? Not on your life. I will not support it. If a product offers only a subscription model, I’m out, period. There are too many products out there that don’t, and nothing in this industry is unique enough to force me to choose a subscription-based product.

3 Likes
#36

This thread has me thinking about running Wireshark while Izotope and Arturias software centres are running, I would think they are in love with telemetry data like everyone else at this point.

1 Like
#37

This captures the essence of the issue as I see it. If you can really get the install management tool working seamlessly, and plan on releasing a wide variety of plug-ins (that you expect to version), then it can very helpful. You can have a searchable hub that allows users to easily manage new downloads, updates, and subscriptions, if that’s the way you want to go.

But that’s a really big “if”, as it is non-trivial to create that hub…most seem to do it rather badly, and it becomes a massive annoyance. Best to go completely stripped down and simple unless you are certain your hub is both necessary for your own sanity as you create more plug-ins, and will actually make your users’ lives easier. (Having seen your work in both software and hardware UI/UX and programming, I am confident that you would do it properly…the question is, do you really want to be spending your time writing a digital janitor?)

Regarding subscriptions: thanks, I hate it. It always feels like a shakedown, like you’re renting gear. It’s never truly yours. It also creates a guilt/why am doing this? complex if you go a couple of months without using it. That sense of certainty in having permanent control over even virtual gear is satisfying in a variety of ways.

#38

My point wasn’t “hey, let’s criticize other people’s setups and what works for them” but more “hey, as a software company with tens of thousands of paying customers, you need to come up with a solution that works for as many users as possible, despite their wildly different needs”.

I’m an edge case as a single user with 300+ plugins (again, mostly just NFR trades), but you should keep in mind that there are studios that need to own significantly more plugins than that so that they can load their clients’ projects.

3 Likes
#39

My point wasn’t “hey, let’s criticize other people’s setups and what works for them” but more “hey, as a software company with tens of thousands of paying customers, you need to come up with a solution that works for as many users as possible, despite their wildly different needs”.

Sorry if I sounded grumpier than I actually am, but I didnt took it that way, dont worry.

Anyway, as I cant bend the all game to my needs I just adapt myself around the rules, so far so good :+1:

But what you described is actually far from those software that multiplied themself in a lot of files for the sake of installing one plugin. So I guess I should be more precise about my thoughts on this topic next time.

1 Like
#40

Im pretty ambivalent about all of this…
simply because all sides of this has its pros and cons.

single installer vs combo installers
sure, if you have one product with no dependancies, a simple download install is what I want,
but its a pain installing / registering when you have many.
e.g. it took quite a while for me to download and install all my vahalla and u-he plugins
and I hardly ever check for updates, because its such a pain…

but on the flip side, I dont like having things like NI access constantly checking for updates, but at least it provides one click, to pretty much install/register all you own.

similar with subscriptions vs purchase.
if Im using a product alot then I tend to want it to be up to date, so buying an upgrade each year, or paying for a subscription, is not much difference.

you don’t really ‘own’ software, Ive got software that I didnt use much so didnt upgrade, and it wont even run/install any more due to OS changes, and even if it did - I know if I wanted to use it again - Id end up doing an upgrade first.

after my initial dislike of Bitwigs model, I think thats a pretty good compromise.
you can always use whatever your version you have, but have subscriptions for updates.

as a developer this also feels like a reasonable apporach, giving development access to a more constant revenue stream, and also potentially reducing the need for big ‘milestone’ releases (which are mostly about marketing, and pretty unncessary)
also, users expect support (and many expect added features) after releases - so devs need a way to help fund this - is more like a service industry than a ‘product’ industry.

so I think its totally right, that the software industry is trying different models, to find one that suits both the developers and customers.

I guess, in some ways, Id love it if software was just registered in one place, and they it auto downloads and installs. - this feels ideal
but has the big problem of a ‘single point’, not only of failure, but also control. ( * )
perhaps if this was fully distributed across suppliers, and some how trustworthy (big IFs !) - this might provide a solution?!

but for now… I dont mind, all I care about is whatever approach a developer uses, that its done well and provide reasonable value for money, and I’ll make my decision if I want to continue to use it or not.

( * ) having had some nasty issues with iLok, im not a great fan of this - but only because as time it doesn’t work properly…