Latency issues / Digitakt / Overbridge / Reason

Hi, long time listener, first time caller - apologies if I’ve put this in the wrong place or if it’s already been addressed and I’ve missed it in my frantic google searching.

Issue:
Digitakt is giving me more latency than I believe it should.

Details:
I use Reason as a DAW (I know, but it’s what I’ve always used and I’d rather not move to another if possible…) and when using the Digitakt via Overbridge plugin, I’m getting more latency issues than are appropriate.


Ok, this screen shot should show the audio files for a series of synths recorded with a trigger on the same time sent from Reason via MIDI out, USB usually. The divisions are 64ths.

Let’s work from the bottom up:

  • At the bottom, is a Digitone (DT Syn1). There’s a 64th delay from the MIDI out to the audio recording in. Both MIDI out and Audio in were sent and received through USB/Overbridge plugin on the Digitone.
  • Then there’s “Audio Track 1” and “GM mono”. These are both the same instrument, recorded separately, a Moog Grandmother. In “GM mono” the MIDI note was sent through USB directly to the Grandmother. In “Audio Track 1”, the note was sent to the Digitakt via USB and then on to the Grandmother through a MIDI cable (I’ll talk about this in a bit). The audio in is via an Analog Four Mk1. In both cases, there’s a 64th delay from the MIDI out to the audio recording in - like the Digitone.
  • Above that, is “A4 Syn1” - an Analog 4 Mk1 with MIDI out and audio in via USB/Overbridge plugin - like the Digitone. And like the Digitone, a 64th delay.
  • Finally, we have “DT CLP mono” and “DT Kick”. Both of these are Digitakt, the kick and clap channel respectively, with MIDI out and audio in via USB/Overbridge plugin. ***** Here the delay is more than /32. More than double all the other instruments outlined above.

The issue seems to be the latency in sending MIDI to a Digitakt and receiving Audio is more than double other Elektron items and external synths.
To my simple mind, this seems to be more of an audio issue than a MIDI issue as - as sequencing the Grandmother directly or via the “slow” Digitakt makes no difference.
It also seems to be Digitakt specific - as the Analog 4, the Digitone and other non-Elektron equipment return sound at about the same rate - only the Digitakt is slow.
I mean, I don’t particularly mind if there’s latency with synths external from the computer - as long as they’re all in sync with each other, it’s fine. But if the Digitakt is coming in slower than everything else, it’s like WTF? And as it’s doing drums, you really notice that latency much more than if it was doing pads or whatever.

Technical info:
All Elektron items (Digitakt, Digitone, and Analog 4 Mk1) are running the latest OS with the latest Overbridge.
The computer is a Mac M1 Mini.
The software is Reason 12.
The sample rate is 48,000, the buffer size is 64 samples (also tested with same results at 128 and 256 samples).

I’d really like it if the solution was not “use a different DAW” because tbh I can’t be bothered. Also, everything else is pretty much working - it’s just the digitakt that is slow - why is that??

Please help :slight_smile:

To rule out the DAW, you could test with a different DAW.

If you’re still getting the same latency, maybe you can compensate for it in Reason?

I know that in Ableton you can set an offset for the individual tracks and then when you record, everything falls into the right place.

Something like this should be possible with Reason as well.

I haven’t tested with a different DAW yet. Hoping I don’t have to! But I will try that, thanks for your feedback.

However, the issue is not specifically with recording, it’s with playback too. The Digitakt is playing back slower than everything “live” - i.e. when sequencing multiple instruments via the DAW and listening to it, the Digitakt is noticeably slower. I recorded the waveforms in the screenshot as a test to actually see via the grid how much slower the Digitakt was playing back than other instruments.

And while I definitely should try a different DAW, the thing that annoys me is that it’s ONLY the Digitakt that has this issue. Digitone and Analog 4 are doing fine - so it makes me think it’s Digitakt-specific rather than DAW-specific.

Maybe it is the DAW - I should try another, I know - but wouldn’t it be weird that the issue is the DAW (Reason 12) can’t deal with the Digitakt, but can deal absolutely fine with the A4m1 and Digitone?

At the end of the day those are different devices and who knows what is going on exactly behind the scenes.

You can also try a different USB port. It’s a longshot but maybe it will make a difference.

How much latency difference are we talking here?
Do the samples on the DT have any silence at the start?

Thank you for your response.

I will do all of these testings - and more!

While I’ve got you, what DAW do you feel is the best for working with Elektron gear? I use Reason because that’s how I started doing music - with their inbuilt softsynths and FX units - but these days, I basically use external hardware, so all my raison d’etres of using Reason are ebbing away - and I’m probably not using it the way it ought to be used anymore.

I’ve looked into Studio One and I’ve used Ableton a lot for live performances, but, maybe Logic???

Anyone got any recommendations for DAWs that work with gear no questions asked, I’d be grateful :slight_smile:

Hi DreamXcape!

“How much latency difference are we talking here?”
The difference is about 1/64 and a bit
Screenshot 2022-04-24 at 01.25.08
In this screen shot, you can see the difference between the red and the yellow - both triggered at the same time on the DAW timeline - but the yellow (Digitakt) behind the red (Analog 4 and every other instrument in testing).
The grid is in 1/64 and the tempo is 110bpm - not sure exactly what that works out in ms.

There is no silence on the samples, here is the clap sample from the above screenshot in the Digitakt OB plugin:
Screenshot 2022-04-24 at 01.29.00

That’s about 34ms according to this:
Tuneform - Bold Your Music

That’s a lot of latency, that would be more than a double round trip with the buffer at 64.
Something’s clearly off, are all the Overbridge buffer settings the same for each instrument?

“Something’s clearly off, are all the Overbridge buffer settings the same for each instrument?”

In Overbridge:

All of the devices display that - Analog 4, Digitone and Digitakt. I was gonna screengrab each but they were all exactly the same lol

That should be ~2.7ms for the Overbridge plugin.
Even with a buffer safety margin of 100(if those are samples), latency would be max ~4.8ms.
If all plugins are set like that, latency should be comparable within a couple ms.
So something is introducing more than 30ms of extra latency.

Are there cpu heavy plugins on the DT channel that could cause this?
Something like a linear phase eq can cause a lot of latency, also look-ahead limiters.

Did you try different USB ports like szszoke suggested?

Also note that since you’re on a relatively new platform being the M1, some other problems could be in play.

My last suggestion would be running the project at 44.100, that could force Overbridge into a different mode.

What is your main audio interface?

if your buffersize in reason is 64, you should set it the same in overbridge control panel.

I’ll test later today and get back to you with any findings. Last time I tried overbridge in Reason 12 I was surprised at how tight it was, much tighter than on live 11.

However I don’t really use overbridge in any saw since i prefer to record on the standalone overbridge app.

Just testing now. Reason 12, Windows 10. While there is absolutely no latency during playback (DT plays right on the money along with instruments playing in Reason), but there is latency when you try to record the DT. Not too much, but it is there. Can it be avoided? I do not know. Which is why I prefer to just record on the standalone app and then bring into the daw the individual wave files for arrangement.

It might be an issue with Rosetta which is giving you extra latency?

Thanks for the replies everyone, I’ve been doing some testing and that based on your advice, here’s the latest:

Yellow = Digitakt
Red = Analog 4 MkI
Green = Digitone

All receiving a midi trig from the DAW at the same time. Divisions are 64ths.

So, they’re much more in-line with each other now, though the Digitakt does seem to be fractionally late. Not immediately noticeable though.

DreamXcape

Are there cpu heavy plugins on the DT channel that could cause this?

No, nothing.

Did you try different USB ports like szszoke suggested?

Yes, and this did make an immediate difference - even a different port on the same hub.

Thinking of getting the Overhub - I currently use an Orico hub that looks pretty identical (I can’t find it on Amazon so it may have been discontinued - but Overhub is specifically designed to get Elektron going, might be worth a punt.

My last suggestion would be running the project at 44.100, that could force Overbridge into a different mode.
What is your main audio interface?

Done that. Audio Interface is Focusrite Scarlett 6i6o (that might not be the exact name? Something like that and has six ins and outs).

Phillip

Just testing now. Reason 12, Windows 10. While there is absolutely no latency during playback (DT plays right on the money along with instruments playing in Reason), but there is latency when you try to record the DT. Not too much, but it is there. Can it be avoided? I do not know. Which is why I prefer to just record on the standalone app and then bring into the daw the individual wave files for arrangement.
It might be an issue with Rosetta which is giving you extra latency?

Thanks for taking the time to run some tests. Are you getting about the same latency as I am? If so, I guess that’s fine.

Yeah, I’d use the standalone capture if I was just using elektron stuff, but really need it in the DAW as there are other audio tracks and other instruments etc. Need it to all at least playback together.

Thanks for all your help guys. As of right now, it seems to be ok…? But I have the suspicion I’ll be back lol.

If you’re wondering why you didn’t get any reactions yet, you didn’t use the quote or tag system, so the persons you quoted didn’t get a notification.
You can put an @ before someone’s name to tag them.

Time to get an new hub and/or cables.

There’s nothing special about Overhub, it’s just a cheap rebranded OEM hub.

Your Orico hub is probably fine, but if you want to make sure you have to look at the chips that are used in the hub, Orico reports this for most of their hubs, if you can’t find that information don’t buy it.

There are 3 very common USB hub chips made by VIA, the VL812, VL815 and VL817.
Anything with a VL812 should be avoided, since it’s not Multi-TT.
Although Multi-TT only matters when mixing USB 1.1 and 2.0 devices on the same hub, for instance MKI and MKII/Digi devices, it’s still advisable to get hubs that support it.

Also note that Elektron advises against the use of any hub with Overbridge.

Those are not the most trustworthy interfaces, but it depends on the version.
The first edition Scarlett interfaces are trouble.
You could possibly get a bit better results with a low jitter audio interface like an RME.

Having said that, since it’s mostly working fine now, you’re probably good.
Have fun making music!