Thomann sold me a used up DK as B-Stock - is this considered fraud?

Elektron Gear
#1

Update 2:

A few people have questioned why I keep insisting on an “explanation”, and I wont be replying to them not because I don’t appreciate their comments, but I keep repeating myself like a broken record and it is clogging up the thread, and this is probably due to MY rambly writing and certain words I have chosen, so I will keep it brief:

  1. Before sending it back for a refund, I NEED a black and white confirmation that states something like “WE sent you THIS f%$^d unit in your pictures that is NOT fully functional and YOU did NOT cause this”. Reason being leads to point 2.

2. Imagine this very realistic scenario:

Returns Staff: Hey boss, this customer just sent an old AF unit back to us, what do you think?

Returns Manager: WTF! We don’t sell stuff like that! How is it even possible? Have any of you seen this before?

Returns Staff: Absolutely not! We check everything and would have flagged it out right?

Returns Manager: Tell Customer Service the guy is trying to scam us as there is NO WAY we would do this!

Customer Service: Sorry sir but we regret to inform you that your refund has been denied and if you want the item back you will need to pay for shipping.

UPDATE: Very disappointing, I thought there would be an explanation to how Thomann could sell me an old and used Digitone Keys as a 30 day returned B-Stock.

But they have totally ignored EVERY single question of mine to explain how a used and abused unit manufactured in 2020 can be classified as B-Stock in regards to their description.

Gave them over 72 hours and they replied today like they are doing me a favour by actually making an “exception” to cover shipping back for me.

But I told them I am NOT sending anything back until they acknowledge what they sent me is, as they can just turn around and claim I damaged it or swapped it because technically they don’t sell used items as B-Stock.

Since they seem so casual and brazen about it, am I over reacting? I don’t know much about German or EU law, so could members here kindly offer some thoughts if this is considered fraud before I “officially” accuse them.

Here are some pictures:

Screen caps of conversations, I asked within minutes of making the order and before anything was packed. Asked if it was a refurb, and they said no it is B-Stock and Thomann blabla etc (sorry if I sound like a broken record in this thread :pleading_face:)

You can see how they make it a point everytime to duck explaining the situation almost as if they were sidechained :sweat:

The box labelled B-Stock, serial number matching and the manufacturing date is 2020.

Just look at this, the person “checking” it didn’t even bother cleaning it! The output jacks were caked in dust, what looks like soil-looking dirt particles scattered around it, and just look at the keybed. The disgusting stains are one thing, but the grime build up UNDER the keys is terrible. There is even a blotch of green ink or paint. The black key in the picture has a small chip, like someone was either banging on it hard or dropped something on it.

Then there are the worn/melted/broken buttons and knobs. I don’t know how to attach a video here but the master volume knob is loose and wobbly.

(From here onwards is the original post from last Friday)

Long story short:

Last week I spotted a B-Stock Digitone Keys listed, ordered it, confirmed with customer service that it is not refurbished and is actual B-Stock, then happily counted the days til it arrived.

It arrived yesterday and upon taking it out of the box it had what seems like years of usage on it, manufacturing date is 2020 and was covered in dirt and dust, buttons and knobs have become sticky and master volume knob is wobbly. Contacted customer support within 30 mins of receiving it, with many photos as proof, and they aren’t providing satisfactory solutions.

Longer story for those who aren’t bored yet:

I am completely shocked, as there was no mention that it was a demo or display set. The people packing it up didn’t even bother to wipe off the dust, dirt and grime. Many buttons were super sticky and grimey, the stop button’s rear white plastic holding it in place is broken so it comes clean off with a flick of a finger.

The rear ports were caked in a layer of dust. Some tiny chips on the keybed. Underneath and in between the white keys had serious build up of dirt/grime - not dust! How does dirt get underneath?

Apparently the customer service said they couldn’t provide information other than it is a B-Stock item, so there is no acknowledgement if the unit I got is actually a demo set, store display set or if someone just decided to bring in their old unit and swap it in the warehouse.

The solutions are that I ship it back for a refund, but they wont compensate me for the customs and duties I paid on the international shipping (around 115 Euro), which I feel is not right as I believe I was baited and switched. It isn’t Elektron or the shipping company’s fault they sent me a totally used unit. On top of that, I am concerned if I send it back that it could go “missing” or they can claim I switched the unit for an old one as they only sell new units, or that I damaged it etc.

So then came negotiating compensation that they can credit back to my account. Their final offer after a long back and forth is like a 22% discount on what I paid. I am not happy with that as the unit needs fixing up and condition is not good. I would not pay that price if it was offered to me used or I had known beforehand of the condition.

I wont name the company as of yet, because I held a high opinion on them prior to this and they still have a chance to at least try and be honest on the whole situation rather than play hardball or sweep it under the rug, but would like to ask if anyone else had similar experiences like this and what would you do in this situation?

Thanks for any replies!

#2

someone correct me if im wrong, but i think the digitone keys was discontinued at least 2 years ago, if not more.

if thats somewhat true, what would a b-stock consist of? used or return? most likely it seems like you just bought a used item.

edit: doesn’t seem like they would also keep a demo after years of it being discontinued and the demo unit getting that dirty seems odd.

sorry about your purchase.
everyone loves new crispy gear. what a drag.

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#3

Yes, not discontinued but production has been “paused”, I thought I got lucky and Elektron sent out a new batch.

So I keep asking how is this a B-Stock customer return and not a used unit? And they keep avoiding to answer that. They are also avoiding to say if it is used/demo too.

It is as if they are trying to push me into one of their solutions without addressing the situation :frowning:

#4

Which means how much total out of pocket for you ?

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#5

as a Digi Keys owner (1) sorry you didn’t get the best version, it’s a nice (but far from perfect) bit of gear; (2) hopefully the Digitakt II is evidence there could be a Digitone II in the works as well

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#6

I have asked them one final time to explain how this item managed to get listed up and where it came from, lets see if they will sidestep the matter once again.

#7

So if I were to accept their discount, it would be:

664 Euro for four year old used Digitone Keys
96 Euro Shipping
115 Euro customs and duty

So total 869 Euro, then I have to order a new set of knobs and buttons from Elektron and I am just about at the 999 Euro new retail price, but I have the absolute pleasure of having a used up unit that I could have bought off Reverb or other places at anytime for cheaper.

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#8

Thanks man!

Right now it just came to my mind that they might have tried getting rid of this old demo/display unit because a new Digitone 2 is incoming.

I played with it for a few hours and liked it more than expected sound and workflow wise, but everytime I touched a button (which is like every 5 seconds or less with Elektrons) I got very angry as the sticky feeling felt ridiculous and reminded me this situation from a big retailer should not be tolerated.

I don’t mind if I put the wear and tear in myself over a few years but this is not acceptable.

#9

So it is working, right ?

Used always carries a small risk. Shouldn’t have been like that from the retailer you bought from though.

Make the best lemonade you can, now. Think about the marginal costs for your options, finding your best out, and taking the lump. Sorry for the grief with this. It would be so nice to be just making music.

I know that you can sometimes get the tax and duty refunded on a return, with hassling through the paperwork. Might be worth a look too.

2 Likes
#10

Thanks for the encouragement! Trying my best to make the situation work and not getting too worked up about it.

Yes the DK is working, for now. Since it was made in 2020 and has a lot of use on it, I would guess it probably would have a higher chance of failure than something made in 2023/2024.

There is also a difference between buying something that was supposed to be gently used by a customer for a month to see if they like it, and being used by possibly thousands of people for years as a demo/store display unit.

They are refusing to refund or compensate my tax and duties if I return it for a refund and suggested talking to UPS. When I said what does UPS have to do with your company sending me something not as described, they avoided answering. How difficult is it to give 115 Euro store credit to a loyal customer that was wronged? I would have probably used that against something they would have made more money off of anyway …

I really hope this is a one off situation or mistake, because I know a lot of us here buy B-Stock and the feeling of getting a worn down unit from a legit retailer is shocking.

I expect buying from Reverb that there might be a chance of getting something different or literally a brick inside the box, but that is from individual sellers, not from an established store with years of stellar service under their belt.

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#11

B stock shouldn’t mean floor demo model or used and traded in, there’s a difference. I’d get elektron to fax or email you a quote for all buttons and knobs plus the screen bezel so it’s like a refurbish and after you make sure there is nothing else wrong, send it to them and tell them you’ll accept the quoted amount plus the parts bill. the item was misrepresented, and you documented and reported right away, the law is on your side. if they’re reputable they’ll negotiate further.

the volume knob I think you’re shit out of luck unless you know how to and are confident in your soldering. if they force a return, make them pay for it. you can’t expect B stock to be new in box, but it should generally mean customer return without use or other open box, customer trade in and floor model (floor demo) are generally not defined under B stock.

you will likely not find a new in box, old stock, dn keys at the original price and it’s already in your possession so I’d attempt to work around the issue, as frustrating as it is.

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#12

Thank you very much for your advice! I was starting to question myself if I am just overeacting and maybe its normal for big companys to try and sell old floor units or trade ins as B-Stock.

And if they know they are breaking the law by selling me used/floor unit as a B-Stock customer return (which they totally did!), they certainly didn’t behave like it. Or is it because I am thousands or miles away in a different country they feel that I can’t and wont make a case against them?

They said the device at 864 Euro B-Stock price is already highly discounted from the original price of around 1110 Euro and reflective of the condition, so they can’t offer a bigger discount.

Then whenever I ask why is this categorised as B-Stock when it is obviously not, they avoid answering.

The keep stating the device is B-Stock but wont explain how it is considered B-Stock and wont acknowledge where it came from, like if it is floor/demo/trade-in/whatever.

This is why I am reluctant to arrange a return for a refund with them if they can’t even be honest about the situation :frowning:

1 Like
#13

Who’s the retailer?

I’m sure other people would appreciate being pre-warned before buying b-stock from them, especially if they’re large…

3 Likes
#14

just for clarification, the law won’t define the difference between used and B stock, that’s all on the retail side. what the law usually guards against is misrepresentation, so their description under which pretense you decided to purchase is what’s important. moreover my understanding is that you have a right to return within a certain amount of time and clearly they don’t want you to return it which is why they’re offering a discount.

whether it’s because you’re in a different country or not I’m not sure is as relevant, I think in EU there are some laws which may be more relevant to local jurisdiction but you’re talking about something more general because a lot of people do buy things online mail ordered these days so there have to be more general guidelines to cover that type of transaction.

If 1110 is an accurate price, they’re giving you better than 20% but not as good as 25% as a discount, if you figure that elektron usually charges around 2 each for buttons and around the same for knobs, even just the trigs and knobs without any other button or the bezel would be something like 52, if you add the other buttons a bezel (bezel costs like 10, can be replaced with a hair dryer to loosen the adhesive) it increases. I think you should show them a quote directly from elektron and then negotiate up to atleast 25% which would take it down from 1110 to about 832, then at least you can have part of the replacement parts paid for.

this is just my opinion, you can do what you want but your ability to act on this will be limited so don’t take too long with getting a quote, and if you can’t (because you aren’t able to get anyone on the phone/email from elektron) don’t delay, just decide if you’re willing to settle for what you have so that way you don’t end up with nothing.

For what it’s worth another member recently had some trouble with musicstoreonline over a keystep pro chroma and I think is still trying to resolve it, it’s not uncommon for large retailers to try and make it difficult for you to negotiate and I wouldn’t go crazy but I would be determined.

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#15

I wont name them yet, as I still want to give them a chance to acknowledge this a one-off crazy mistake that happened, but if they continue to pretend this isn’t an issue and it is just a matter of me not being satisfied then I will definitely name them so people can think twice about buying B-Stock from them.

#16

No offence, but this is factually wrong/incorrect… you only ‘refund’ when you have charged the money in the first place, and the retailer hasn’t in this case. UPS have collected that money on behalf of your government. It’s a PITA, but you have to get a refund from your gov via/with info from UPS.

That process is irrelevant in regards to the retailers decision to send you a sub standard item.

4 Likes
#17

this is accurate, in fact, with some paperwork you may be able to get a bit of tax refunded based on the transaction refund (the store giving you money back), but you’ll need to show proof (amended invoice) that you paid less. There is probably a more general fee for import which I doubt you can collect a refund on.

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#18

So someone else here could potentially have the same experience with the same item if you get sorted?

#19

They might be basing their 1110 Euro price of when the unit first came in since it is made in the year 2020, but in the year 2024 even Elektron has it listed at 999 Euro even though it on “Out of Stock” status for ages.

And keep in mind whether the retail price is 1110 or 999, those are for brand new units, this one is old and beaten up. There are a lot cheaper ways to get heavily used up Digitone Keys.

I am most likely looking at a return with a full written explanation of why and how this happened so they can’t turn around and accuse me of damaging it or sending back my own old unit etc.

I am not really desperate for this as I can easily get a used unit for whatever I am paying now even after their discount because I paid quite a bit in shipping/taxes. It was the allure of getting a new Digitone Keys with full manufacturer warranty in 2024 was what pushed me to buy it.

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#20

I know the retailer mame as i spotted it and was going to order that digitone but you were quicker than me

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