Is the rhythm from Fatty Boom Boom (Die Antwoord) a canonized rhythm?

The Lounge General Discussion
#1

Hey to all the formally and informally educated drummers among us. And geeks and nerds. And who else feels spoken to :wink:

I was, again, hyperfocussing on polyrhythms, math, ratios, harmony, microtonality etc. Everything more on a conceptual level (like divisions per bar or so, programming it with Euclidean Pro in Ableton).

Went to Indian Shrutis and Talas and then stumbled upon this energetic rhythm (by suggestion of the Algo). It (rhythm in Fatty Boom Boom) feels natural to western techno and hiphop trained ears. I don’t think there is much poly in it but syncopation. However, I wondered if this was a canonized rhythm in any system (like different drum group traditions) and has a name or number?

The group itself is controversial, I know that. It has many layers. Things, like existing work from a certain point in time, are interpreted differently in different decades depending on known or unknown facts and developments of the artists. But that’s not the topic.

If one of you would have examples of this rhythm in other context, that would be great, too (I only found live drum covers, one even played a common breakbeat over it).

Memory can be fallable

I believe deep base drum is on 1, (3), 7, 13; the higher pitched drum (can be substituted by clap pr snare) on 5, 11, 15.
Edit: will explore later, what the mind made of the rhythm when reproducing from memory…

The singing/voice has another rhythm that is somehow connected.

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#2

I think it is a variant of the basic ‘tresillo’ rythm (3-3-2). Sometimes this is called ‘cinquillo’.

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#3

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#4

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#5

Please stay on topic. It’s about analysis of a drum pattern. I couldn’t find it elsewhere or I would have posted that instead.

OT to OT

One can analyze rhetorics of speeches of the most evil statesmen. Patterns and language don’t become evil because they have been used (not invented) by people who one despises (and in case of language analysis the knowledge about the tools gives possibilities to protect people from manipulation).

In this case, even if it was what‘s called cultural appropriation (the band will not have invented the drum pattern) I‘d like to know about the functioning (musical theory) and origins (culturally) of that pattern.

I came there by watching videos about Shrutis and Talas.

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#6
#7

Hm. Thanks. I thought more on a concrete level, with numbers, classifications etc. Subsaharan - what do you think which rhythm was used by the band?

OT Westerners and music from other continents

Edit: The notion of a Westerner in the 19th century who perceived all rhythms as one main system doesn’t have to be entirely accurate.

See other western misconceptions like about Persian music.

https://youtu.be/LR511iAedYU

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#8

Hi, as mentioned above, I believe they play a straightforward “cinquillo” rythm : XoXXoXXo/XoXXoXXo/…

This rythm (and its basic form, the “tresillo” : XooXooXo/XooXooXo/…) is a very fundamental and well-known rythm of African origin, which is present in a wide range of musical traditions (especially in Afro-Cuban music).

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#9

Yes, I can see that now: 6:6:4, twice, shifted by 2 (if I listened correctly) :slight_smile:

#10

A bit of advanced nerding from Toussaint, G. T. 2020. The geometry of musical rythm. 2nd ed. Taylor & Francis. (This author refers to the rythm as “shiko” based on its traditional use in Nigeria, but he also argues that it is a fairly universal pattern.)

Summary

"In Nigeria, this rythm goes by the name of shiko. It has a durational pattern [4-2-4-2-4], and has three onsets that coincide with the metric beats, and two onsets that fall halfway between these beats. Note that these intervals are divisible by two, and thus the rythm could be notated as [2-1-2-1-2], or in box notation as [x.xx.xx.]. In this form it is commonly called by its Cuban name, the cinquillo. It is played on the xiaoluo (small gong) in Peking Opera. As a timeline, it is played in the moribayasa rythm among the Malinke people of Guinea, and in the Banda rythm used in voudoo ceremonies in Haiti. In Martinique, it is the tibwa timeline. In Cuba, it is played on a wooden block in the makuta rythm, and in Romania, it is a folk-dance rythm. This rythm is also started on the second, third, and fourth onsets. For example, the timini rythm in Senegal is [xx.xx.x.], which is equivalent to starting the shiko on the second onset. This pattern is played on a bell for the adzogbo dance of the Fon people in Benin, and is also frequently encountered in the Persian Gulf region. When started on the third onset, it becomes the Romanian folk dance rythm [x.xx.x.x]. On the other hand, the kromanti rythm of Surinam is [xx.x.xx.], which is equivalent to starting the shiko on the fourth onset, and is also a Romanian folk-dance rythm. Starting on the fourth onset yields the durational pattern [2-4-4-2-4], which is a timeline played by Mbuti Pygmies in the Democratic Republic of Congo and the San Bushmen of Botswana.

The shiko timeline is also found as the first part of longer rythms. A well-known Arabic rythm, the whada kebira given by [X.xx.xx.X.X.x.xx], contains the shiko as its first part. Since this is played on a drum, rather than a bell, the … uppercase X denote lower-pitched sounds (dum) and the small x’s high-pitched slaps (tek or tak). Cyclic shifts to the shiko timeline also appear in longer rythms. For example, the kassa from Guinea given by [xx.x.xx.x.x.x.x.] has the kromanti as its first bar. Finally, we remark that the shiko on the second onset is also a popular drum pattern found in Arabic rythms played on a drum. Here again, some notes are low sounds, whereas others are high pitched. The maqsum is given by [Xx.xX.x.], and the baladi by [XX.xX.x.]. The masmudi is a slow baladi, and the saidi has duration intervals [XX.XX.x.]. The durational pattern in these last three Arabic rythms is the same, and it is only the pitch (or timbre) of the drum notes that varies from one rythm to another."

(Toussaint, 2020, pp. 27-28; references omitted)

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#11

That seems to be a great book :star_struck::smiley: Thanks!

#12

Not sure if it’s exactly the same, but also reminded me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4HDC7f1fI

#13

Yes, I find it very interesting - basically, the author (who was a computer scientist passionate about geometry and music - Godfried Toussaint - Wikipedia) reduces rythms from a wide range of cultural traditions to their mathematical/geometrical structures and seeks to identify common features of “good” rythms. So it emphasizes commonalities rather than cultural differences and the variety of meanings that can be attached to a given pattern (and its uses).

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#14

Yes, part A of this A/B rhythm sounds very similar. The B part is like the answer pattern. :slight_smile:

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#15

That‘s absolutely what I was looking for. Ordered it right away :smiley:

#16

I imported the sample into Ableton, warped it, and this time I didn’t work with (biological sound) memory but with simultanious sound data. (I don’t know what I thought I heard last night) Result (as you posted):

Bildschirmfoto 2024-05-27 um 16.29.27

Base drum
XoXXoXXo|XoXXoXXo
1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15

Clap is the inverted base pattern:
oXooXooX|oXooXooX

Now I understand that much better. Thank you very much!!

#17

… beware that musicologists often hammer everything through the sieve of their world view and leaving out all the fine details that actually make things special …

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#18

Toussaint is mathematician first :slight_smile: Musicologist third or so :wink:
Hower, I am surprised that hearing and tapping seems to be something completely different for me than understanding and seeing. Absolutely decoupled. So simple (hear and tap) and so difficult (understand, visualize). But once both is done for a rhythm, I just need to remember the number code and off we go :smiley:

#19

Many are arrogant first and then comes the rest :wink: I just wanted to express generally - not directed towards anything specifically - to take those things just as one individual’s ideas about ideas of other people, not as truths.

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#20

That’s what I mentioned before (and one of the somewhat odd aspects of Toussaint’s book despite all its interest) - his approach entirely evacuates cultural context, performance, and meaning of playing a rythm in a particular way. Yet, I also find it interesting to identify patterns that appear to underpin rythms across a wide range of traditions.

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