How to make better electronic "jam" records

The Lounge General Discussion
#1

Fully admitting my addiction, I’ve taken to hitting the 'Tube daily at 6:30am, listening to interesting music-related interviews while cooking my breakfast and taking my morning walk. Oh, and I take a walk at dusk every day, as well, since I can’t currently afford real therapy :joy:

I’ve been on a binge of interviews with the neurotic, opinionated nerdy New Yorker, Mr. Michael Beinhorn, whose production credits include Soundgarden, Korn, Hole, Marilyn Manson, Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Herbie Hancock. He’s not just a producer, but a big time synth lover, writer, and all around creative. He’s got this voice that is the sonic equivalent of salt and vinegar chips and a frequent laugh that shows that he has done a lot of work on himself, finally able to find joy in little things.

Beinhorn has a lot to say about the art of song and album production, including the now mysterious sounding process of “pre-production”. And we’re not talking about choices like “mic placement” and “1176s” and “U87s”, we’re talking about songs, vocal rhythms, ideas, emotions, reasons for writing a song in the first place…

It hit me on my walks today and yesterday that the process of “pre-production” in rock, pop, and other conventional genres can, nay, SHOULD be employed in my own chaotic so-called process of getting these incessant emotions and ideas out into electronic musical form. It’s been 25 years of feeling that I have something to say, but never feeling satisfied with my attempts at saying it.

Obviously, it would be best if someone else is the one who listens to the demo tracks, listens to their body/emotional response, and then engages in a dialogue with the artist about how to get closer and closer to the core of the idea–and from there how to PRODUCE the best rendition of the song…to make the best recording possible.

Many of us are solo musicians–and the ability to stand back and listen to an idea, tease out the essence through inquiry, then rebuild, sharpen, hone, and re-record the best version is a luxury afforded only to those with incredible mental discipline and ability to switch gears quickly and decisively.

But if you do want to enjoy the fruits of such a tried-and-true process…here’s the trick:

Record a demo. A version that has JUST ENOUGH to say what the song is about, and no more. Record it, export it, put it into your phone, walkman, audiophile FLAC player, or hell, your old 32MB Diamond Rio from 2003 (clear out the Britney first). Wait a couple days, then take a walk and listen to it as if it’s not even yours.

Try separating the process, the way many successful producers do. It really hit home when I heard Michael Beinhorn lament the awful experiences of “fixing songs” and “trying new parts, arrangments, orchestrations” during the RECORDING process. It was almost cheating the art out its birthright to full development.

Anyway, thought that might be helpful.

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#2

That’s pretty much what I do.
When I’m writing or jamming, and come up with something decent, I record a quick demo of maybe 2-3 minutes. Then I move on to another track. I do that until a I’ve got maybe 10 demos. No one else hears these.

Then I return to the demos some time later and develop them into full tracks. As you say, finding ways to get the best out of the initial idea.

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#3

Fixing the song is pretty much my composition process :joy:

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#4

Some good insights here, @RhythmDroid. A few comments:

I fully agree about getting at what the emotion of a piece of music before trying to complete it. So much of electronic music is incredibly vague emotionally, as its harder to convey a specific emotion without words. I think that’s why acts like Boards of Canada are so successful, as I find a lot of their work to be in a pretty specific mood, even if musically, it can be quite different. I don’t like listening to music where the mood and intent of the artist isn’t clear; it often feels like demos for the gear they are using instead of representing the artist, which I think is one of the greatest artistic sins you can make.

Secondly, I fully agree about listening to demos and works-in-progress while walking or doing anything else away from your workstation. I have been putting this into practice and its where I’ve uncovered the best snippets of my own work over the years. I’ve read about many successful artists doing a similar thing.

Lastly, I fully agree that the importance of a good producer is often overlooked in electronic music since we are all ‘producers’ in another sense. There’s a real difference, IMO, in someone who can produce other people in the classical sense and a producer who knows how to work a DAW and a tabletop full of gear and I think that line has become incredibly muddled over the years. I’m someone who has done both and they are vastly different skillsets, almost to the point that I think we need to start using different words for each skill.

Curious what other people think as well.

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#5

Havnt musicians always used Demos? Tapes were handed in by the dozen to Radio stations and record companies. Most were very badly recorded.

#6

Demos of electronic music might not be the same as demos off rock song though, where you have to develop over a chord or melodic structure

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#7

This is so true. Its something I work very hard to avoid. If a piece doesnt speak to me or tell me a story, or convey a feeling, I switch off. This includes my own work.

You dont need lyrics to do those things. Look at classical music.

So yeah, working that bit out is the job! Very important one. Listening to demos of your iwn tracks helps you do that, since you can spot what it needs or doesnt need very easily. If the demo version is already capturing the mood with just a beat, a bassline and a melody, you dont need 32 tracks of other crap on top of it just becuase you can.

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#8

I agree with all this except that the lack of words being the main obstacle. In my listening, it seems like a bigger problem is that a lot of folks are just making stuff for the sake of making it, instead of spending time exploring and harvesting vibes. I don’t feel good hating on people for enjoying a hobby that’s more creative than e.g. video games or social media, but what a missed opportunity.

As in, there’s so much stuff that’s well-produced, beautifully paced, has good sound design and sample selection, and the chords and melodies make sense, but it bores the hell out of me and I couldn’t tell you for the life of me what “point” of it is. Like my brain stops and says “dopamine not detected”. Electronic music can be (some of) the best, but it’s also easy to make stuff that just sort of ticks all the musical boxes without any real connection to the human soul between the speakers.

I have almost the opposite problem where I find so many sounds I adore that make me feel big feels, and so many sounds that float through my brain when distracted, but I have trouble building them into full tracks. Still, I’d rather have this problem.

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#9

I’m not a very emotional Person. Maybe that’s the reason why I not even reach the point of thinking about finishing a track. :flushed:

#10

I do that constantly, I use Telegram which is already on my phone as a dedicated player for my recordings, I put all my recordings into the “Saved Messages” thread that comes with the app and when I hit play it auto plays everything, when taking a walk, when driving somewhere, I just put it and see if there’s something in there I like or not.

I wish I had the capacity to go back and redo stuff, most of the time I just think “yeah I could fix that with x-y-x” but I don’t, but it’s really a good way to review your work as a continuous playlist that has contrast with recordings against each other.

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#11

I see it like this:

I imagine I have to give a speech. I could rant about a general idea and see how it goes. I know it will most likely be a total mess and there is a tiny percentage that it may actually be listenable. Do I want to be heard? I guess I do. Do I still want to rant and riff out? I think so. Well, maybe I should think of a few key points that I would like to at least address, maybe identify a point that could branch out in different directions, etc etc. Now that I have a plan, I see that more people are interested in what I have to say, because my speech and my delivery is less of a mess. and look, I got off course, but thanks to my notes and my key points, and could get back on track. Awesome!

But you know what? This subject is too dear to my heart. I really want to represent it to people with the clarity, passion, and respect I strongly believe it deserves. I am going to spend time to write out as much of my speech as possible. I am going to make the effort of choosing well constructed sentences. I am going to chose words that will be understood by my audience, and that will make an impact. I am then going to practice my speech for the next few days, by myself, in front of a trusted friend or family member. I am going to practice speaking as clearly as possible. Overall, I am going to practice everything that I can to make this speech as good as I can get it, because when I am standing on stage, I want to not only respect the topic and what it means to me, but also my audience in delivering the best quality I can.

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#13

I think I’m pretty much doing what you’re saying: when I come up with a new idea through a jam and have developed a few core elements and maybe even 2-3 parts/variations, I try to record a basic idea just to get the feeling across. Maybe I then send it to a trusted person or even share it here. And then I listen to it a lot to see what works and what doesn’t.

That’s a good thing because I know my sketches intimately and have ideas how to change or develop them. But it also tends to destroy the emotional impact end joy I had when I came up with it and listened to it for the first few times. This becomes worse when you’re further working out these tracks and “produce” them. It starts to really feel like work for me then and I’m losing the fun.

I guess that’s normal and I ultimately want to finish an idea, so I guess it’s worth it. But I’m currently struggling and give myself some “time off” from working on material. Have some fun exploring sounds, maybe jam out more. This is also a dangerous time for GAS or re-arranging your setup in the middle of the process. But it can also lead to you having fun and discovering new methods that you can then apply when you return to finishing the track. How do you balance this? @Tchu has responded to one of my posts mentioning that it’s important to take time off and jam, so you don’t lose the fun. But I can also see how some people need to be disciplined and finish something before jamming etc.?

I sometimes wish I had this “producer” that @maymind_trax mentions, that I could just hand over stuff and they would tell me what’s the great core and what needs to change to bring it out even more. I’ve been slowly reaching out more to people I know personally as well as forum users to see if this is something that works for me. Not ready to share someting though, as I first want to have a demo that does the idea justice. But maybe that’s the trap @RhythmDroid mentions, where you don’t want to change much anymore and not fix it while “recording”? Curious to hear if others on the forum are doing this amongst each other in DMs etc.? There used to be a thread for getting tips on how to develop an idea, but I think it hasn’t caught fire.

I was also coming to this thread hoping for some takes on how to maybe step back a bit on the “production” aspect and record things more raw, in order for them to keep their emotional core. I’ve started to record individual tracks to do more EQing. Makes my material sound better, but I sometimes also feel like it kills something that was captured in demos. I also don’t like the process, so I’m thinking about going back to recording like one track for drums and then send it through OT and a delay and reverb to “perform” with it.

Sorry for the long post, it sometimes helps to write out stuff ;).

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#14

Is there a good example of his process that I can listen to in this direction?

#15

A producer does this against a 30% royalty share. If you don’t intend to make money with your songs, they may also want to help you against a lump sum, if you’re lucky. That said, the value added by a producer depends on your vibe with them and on their experience in your musical boundaries.

Another way is to consult with some friends who are able to describe your music for you. They won’t be able to tell you what is or is not working but they will tell you if they like it and what feelings it triggers to them. Still, this is all delicate because not every friend is fit for this “job”. This is how I do it and absent any professional advice the whole songwriting process simply takes longer.

That’s why, I avoid recording demos. When I hit the record button, I try to capture the idea and emotions as well and as precisely as possible. Obviously, if a take is not perfect or good enough, I’ll re-record it later on. However, later on the emotions will have changed. So it is a double-edged sword.

On the other hand, writing elaborate melodies takes a certain amount of time due to analyses and/or trial&error. For these, I always take my time because it is totally worth it: a great melody can on its own make an instrumental-only song sound great.

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#16

In the latest podcast with Andrew Huberman Rick Rubin said that the creative proces should be like an entry in a diary. There is no wrong way to write in a diary. And not to think about a finished product/song. Just create out of feeling.
Since i started to jam like this, i feel i get different jams. More experimental.

Later i go back and i take what sounds/feels good. Then i sample that or use it as a whole.
It feels really nice to jam like that.

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#17

That was a fantastic discussion, wasn’t it? Huberman was slightly fanboying a bit hard, tho, LOL. He was so stoked to be hanging out in the deep artist scene away from the university chin strokers.

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#18

I like this advice, but Rubin also said that you just have to make sure that a track/album is the best you could possibly have made at that moment and gave it everything you had. To me that’s a bit of a conflicting message. Because of course I could always spend more time on a track and improve on the sound, lyrics or even the artwork. Or make 100 different versions of it to see which one works best and which parts to remove. I guess the key is to realize when you’re making things worse and destroy the magic of the idea, but also know how to bring out that magic during production.

#19

It might be a bit conflictng indeed.
But when you make something, you make that because that’s how you feel that day.
When you go back, you might feel different so it might not sound as perfect as when you made it.
I think it’s finding a ballance between how it feels to you and it having to be perfect. It will never be 100% perfect. So i ask myself a lot how perfect i want it to be.
I’m not so difficult when it comes to making that choice. If it feels good then that’s okay for me. I don’t do 100 different takes.
I make music because i like the activity. So if the proces feels good then i’ve accomplished what i wanted.

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#20

I think it’s conflicting if not viewed with some surrounding context.

“The creative process should be like an entry in a diary”
I think he’s talking specifically about the “creation” process, the ideation, the genesis. And that’s what I’m talking about, too, the seed of the idea.

The challenge and skill is to preserve the essence of the idea/concept while running it through the iterative development process, for the sake of making it into “the best you could possibly have made at that moment and gave it everything you had.” I mean, the ability to protect the idea throughout the process of development and improvement is why people like Beinhorn, Rubin, George Martin, you name it, get paid a living.

It’s always a delight to hear rough demos of bombshell hit songs when certain things weren’t locked in, certain arrangements hadn’t been figured out, certain lyrics weren’t right…but the essence was there. :grinning:

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#21

@RhythmDroid: Agreed, this is also my interpretation. Really hard though, especially if it’s your own stuff. I think it’s easier for an outside person who gets what made the idea cool but also knows what hard decisions need to be made to make it shine even more.

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