How an Elektron song mode would enable us as musicians

[circuitghost]

I have used song mode on other sequencers to create more elaborate songs with Elektron instruments. It works, but the powerful implementation of parameter locks gets somewhat lost then. They seem to behave differently when triggered externally, at least from the sequencer I have used (mainly the Deluge and Pyramid, for the purpose). So it proves the point that to make something better, you better be careful not to break what’s already awesome.

The blackbox approach, which @aloud echoes nicely by confirming this is an Ableton thing to begin with, has that thing going for it as well that it’s very live friendly. You can intervene at any point to improvise and jam with whatever part of the song you’re in, so it’s not a linear, Pro Logic-approach - it’s just a much more elaborate approach to pattern making that allows for structures that remind of song writing, including the aspect of improvising when you’re just feeling it.

[topo_explo]

@circuitghost

I’d say it’s this more free running approach beyond the pattern structure, that I’m really missing. The Elektron sequencer resets you from the start when you switch patterns, with the exception of the ones with samples that can free run across patterns as long as you don’t retrigger the sample

I really love the free-running aspect of the Blackbox’s sequencer, but there wasn’t ever enough visual feedback for me to be able to structure a song on a granular level. The M8 tracker mostly solves this for me since each of its 8 tracks can play patterns that run independently from another (either through varying pattern lengths or varying playback speed) and also allows for detailed editing per step like an Elektron sequencer, but obviously without a step sequencer and dedicated knobs.

I think it would be amazing if Elektron made a device that had a similar song and pattern structure to the M8, including a larger screen to be able to visualize the relationship between independently moving patterns, while including their typical step sequencer and dedicated knobs. Having the power of these two workflows in one device would be unparalleled

[circuitghost]

Yes, the abstract visualisation of the blackbox doesn’t do it any favours. I can totally see why most people don’t gel with its sequencer or song mode. It’s difficult to get what’s going on.

But once you grasp it, it’s extremely powerful. Deluge has something similar going, but more visually oriented.

From what I’m hearing, the Squarp sequencers don’t quite do this, and instead elaborate on the pattern approach but with a lot of variation and flexibility going on. Agian, the new Roland sequencers seem to head in the Ableton direction as well, and Logic has these clip launchers running in parallell with the linear tracks. I haven’t quite fully grasped the overall structure of the Polyend Play yet, but it certainly pushes the limits on what a pattern-oriented performance can be, disregarding its actual triggering of samples.

So almost everyone is going for it, one way or another. It’s not like devs out there aren’t recognising the need. Quite the contrary.

[djst]

@bibenu

It wouldn’t surprise me to find that those who can’t seem to get what @circuitghost suggested are in the former camp perhaps ?

Not in my case. I definitely want structure like intro, break, buildup, drop etc. I just don’t think @circuitghost really can explain the point of this thread. So everyone is trying to suggest ideas to see if that’s what he means, but apparently no one really gets it.

[aloud]

Here’s how Squarp Hapax does it:

Tracks run vertically, and you can have different pattern running per track:

The screen shows progress of pattern for each track:

This page from their manual explains it, and should not be too hard to follow:

Hapax Manual | Squarp instruments

[djst]

@aMunchkinElfGraduate

Isn’t song mode just an extension of sequencing? We start by sequencing tiny events, discrete sounds, create measures, then larger phrases, patterns.

Taking the process one step further, now we want to sequence those patterns with song mode. Heavens, no, that’s antithetical to the spirit of the Elektron workflow! These boxes were intended to be used for live jamming.

Tell that to a performer on an acoustic instrument who has to recreate their performance from scratch every time they play. They might argue that any sequencing, period, is antithetical to live music making. But they are just snobs, prisoners of their old, worn-out methods.

Indeed, there’s a continuum between a pure instrument in the sense that it’s not playing anything by itself, through something like a drum computer or an Elektron device, which plays some phrases by itself but still relies on someone playing then to leverage their instrument aspect - to something like a DAW being on the other extreme end of the continuum.

I think Elektron wants to be where it is in that continuum and as such I don’t think they will change this. However, allowing for external midi control for all of their tricks wouldn’t be hard to implement and would solve it for those of us who would like to take a live performance to a finished song.

[reeloy]

…if my workflow would not be…sketching…recording an impro with that…pick the cherries in the daw, arrange those cherries to further details and create a song THERE…

I’d also cry out loud, again and again for the total lack of song arrangement options within the hardware…

i only come to final results, create music, write songs for real, once i start with truu arranging…otherwise i’d also get lost in loops…forevaaa…

a song has a beginning, a main struture and an ending…down to endless details…if i could’nt nail THAT, knowing this part is fixed now and will do so exactly again whenever i hit play again from now on, i’d go nutz…

but there must be some technical / engineering issue with the fact that still, all we get is “only” chaining…which improved again a little bit on the syntakt…btw…
otherwise, songmode would be integrated already since ages…

in the end, fact remains…no one works out truu song arrangements on hardware…if u wanna produce a song to it’s very detailed end, it’s always happening in a daw…
while live is live…and a different thing…
here, chaining and patterns as the main container unit, instead of kits, is simply closer to the jam…easier to stay close to ur song idea, while still totally able to really PLAY and PERFORM it…in various, realtime ways…

the uberflexibility of patterns that can adress various kits/parts is missed by many…but there are also people like me, who still get lost sometimes, or fuk things up, when i’m to deep in ot’s parts or a4’s kit management…for me, the simplicity of the pattern holds it all is a blessing…

[aloud]

@djst

I think Elektron wants to be where it is in that continuum and as such I don’t think they will change this.

I don’t believe that to be the case. The big boxes have song mode*, which is much more rigid than clip launching. If anything, clip launching is a nice middle ground between do everything manual/live vs arrange everything on a timeline.

*obviously digis do not have this, and only Elektron knows if they will ever consider anything like song mode or clips, whether the reason is technical (e.g. processing power), UX (they don’t want to make them complex by adding too many features to small boxes) or simply market segmentation (if you want the powerful features, buy the big box).

[guictr]

I know for a fact that if it weren’t for the lack of the song mode, I’d be the new Johann Sebastian Bach.

[Meriphew]

Right now I own three Elektron boxes (MD/AR2/A4). If there was a song mode in the small box units I’d also own all three (DT/DN/ST) of those.

Elektron is losing sales because of their reluctance to add a song mode to these pricey units.

[aloud]

Here’s the screen for song mode on AR:

Let’s say we re-use the ‘Song Mode’ button (on MkII devices), so when you press it you go into Clips mode instead.

If you imagine a similar screen to the image above, but with headings going from 1-12 at the top (depending on how many tracks the device has). Below each heading, you can add patterns to be played for that track vertically e.g. by moving cursor into first empty ‘block’ (clip) and pressing Pattern button, and then selecting a pattern the usual way. That block will now show you e.g. A01. Move the cursor down, and repeat, e.g. A02.

You end up with a grid of patterns, with every track having their own sequence of patterns, independent of other tracks. There also needs to be a key you can press while cursor is on a block to change that clip’s config (Loop on/of, etc).

When you press play, the patterns (clips) in the first row plays (each with their own length), and will either loop or continue to the next pattern. While in play mode, you can move cursor around, and launch a clip with e.g. Fn + Yes, or another shortcut to launch the whole row together.

A downside is that the Elektron screen will likely be too small to show all tracks at the same time (for the devices with 12 tracks, maybe even 8 tracks), so the screen will have to scroll horizontally, and you can’t see what is happening on all tracks at the same time. A4 & DN won’t have this problem.

[HoldMyBeer]

I think the term “song mode” has become somewhat polarizing around these parts. Let’s rebrand it to “cool mode” instead, and more people will be on board.

Personally, I don’t think I really need song mode, but cool mode, now that’s something I might be interested in.

[bibenu]

@HoldMyBeer

I think the term “song mode” has become somewhat polarizing around these parts.

Yup:

@bibenu

It’s a shame you couldn’t express your thoughts without invoking the dread phrase “song mode” and everything it triggers.

[circuitghost]

Yep. Rookie mistake no doubt.

[circuitghost]

On the other hand, this generated 70+ posts in a few hours. So clearly there’s something to talk about still, despite labelling mistakes.

[chapelierfou]

I personally just don’t like patterns.

[bwo]

M8 more recently implemented sequencer jumps and tempo as sequencers events. You can even set up randomization and multiple jumps so you get into generative pattern arrangement (not something I’ve really jumped into) but yeah I could see this as the simple elegant solution, let the sequencer sequence pattern changes… no need to build out complex UI or different layered modes. M8 goes deeper with sequencing scale modes also and global transpose also giving a lot of unique potential for “song mode” using sequencer level tools

[djst]

@reeloy

in the end, fact remains…no one works out truu song arrangements on hardware…if u wanna produce a song to it’s very detailed end, it’s always happening in a daw…

I do that entirely on my MPC One. One can of course argue that that’s a DAW, but…

[Doug]

@circuitghost

Circuit is similar to this, but I believe tracks reset when you switch patterns in Circuit.

Yeah. I’ve got the Rhythm but I think the Tracks works the same way. If you’re changing patterns from the pattern view then I don’t think anything needs to line up after you press play. The sequencer moves from one pattern to the next on each track whenever it happens to be over.

But if you’ve got them in a scene and want to move to another scene then they all reset and start from the beginning at the same time. It would be really cool if there were another version of this that just cued up each track’s patterns and let them change on their own as each one finished

If the transition was a little smoother, the projects on the Rhythm could also be really interesting too. You can basically do the equivalent of pattern jumping with the projects themselves. So you can set up pattern and scene chains and hop back and forth between different versions of these long blocks of things. I’m sure that people who make more interesting music than mine would figure out cool things to do with it. But like I was saying, as is it’s not quite smooth enough. You hear the move from project to project and not just if you’ve got some wild fx tail. I hope Novation takes a look at that.

It would also be really interesting if you could do more with all of these devices as far as controlling aspects of their sequencers externally. Like on the Circuit if you could change each pattern or edit their start and end points over MIDI you could do some really interesting stuff.

So yeah, just having a layer above the patterns where everything is as malleable as each note is in the pattern would be amazing.

Personally, I think I’d wind up just making pretty straightforward stuff that I can run from a long pattern chain like I do now. But other people have cooler ideas than I do.

[Roger]

One has to remind themselves that Elektron devices are, at least from what I have learned, designed to be first and foremost tools in a larger picture. The fact that you can do complete songs on all of them is kind of a red herring to some and an entire artform to others.

I wish that Elektron was more focused on creating the best song-creation tools possible, instead of riding this line just above feature frugality (while keeping the physical hardware quality excellent). Their intention is to force you to see them as instruments not production stations. In my opinion that would be all well and good if they were better instruments than production stations, but in my view the split is about 50/50 and this creates some tension.

Most of them are good at doing songs by themselves. I wouldn’t say that as strongly about the Digis and the Models, but the Models have the advantage of rapidity.

A lot of us aren’t interested in directing the orchestra but would rather play along with it. We like Elektron boxes because they all pack multiple synths in one (economical, if you think about it) box and give you that physicality and immediacy that plugins don’t. You won’t catch most of us more “traditional” minded musicians being as excited about the Elektron sequencer as others, we leverage it for its strengths but are keenly aware of its limitations. Sometimes even get lost in it and let it take the lead. But in the end what comes out is “beats that switch every 4-8 bars” because that’s what it was designed to do. It can do more, but you have to really work for it. So much that you’re better off sequencing things externally, at least partially.

All the while, it seems like with very little effort, Elektron could add song mode (even in some minimal form) to the other devices, where it makes just as much sense as the bigger boxes. This would take what for a songwriter is currently “quite difficult” to “manageable”. Imagine what kind of music could come out of that!