Elektron Sequencers Lose the "1"

Elektron Gear
1

I’d like to call attention to the fact that Elektron sequencers have a serious and extremely non-musical flaw in that when changing track division or length, the sequence for that track is no longer aligned to the “1”. It’s just off, plain and simple. You have to completely stop the box entirely and start it again for things to line up correctly.

In a live performance this is pretty much unacceptable and can’t really be done with intention. I just want to half or double time a track, or loop in 3/16 forever until I decide to go back to 16/16 and have it all lined up perfectly. Nevermind the fact that I might have a pattern where one track is in 5/16, another is in 7/16, and another is in 16/16 and I’d LOVE to be able to maintain this (to use an Ableton term) “legato” flow when changing patterns - which to me is a must have in every hardware sequencer yet hardly any do - that’s worthy of its own topic, but first can we at least get this one foundational thing fixed across all of your boxes? I know this is an issue for the Octatrack, Digitakt, and Digitone, so I assume it is consistent across the whole range.

I really do think this should be treated like a critical bug and am a bit surprised there isn’t more demand for this to be ironed out.

Am I the only one making polymetric music? Of course not, and I’d really love for people to chime in here so Elektron has some idea of how important this is.

So again, my request:
the result of changes to length or division should be calculated in such a way that the sequence is aligned to the grid as if the sequencer had been at that division or length since the pattern started all along.

Can I get a +1?

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The rest of this post is just a hypothesis. I’m trying to explain and understand what is going on in code/math terms, but again, it’s just a hypothesis.

The algorithm for determining the next step in a track, in ultra-simplified terms and ignoring track divisions and just looking at track lengths, in pseudo-code, should be:

nextStep = (globalStep + 1) MODULO trackLength

Where globalStep is the count of steps that have elapsed since the sequencer started (or since the pattern started, but that’s inferior re: legato pattern changes, but I digress). Not taking division into account, it really is that simple.

For example if globalStep = 8, when calculating the next step:

# TRACK 1 (length = 16/16)
nextStep = (8 + 1) MODULO 16 = 9 # CORRECT

# TRACK 2 (length = 5/16)
nextStep = (8 + 1) MODULO 5 = 4 # CORRECT

Using this very simple algorithm, it doesn’t matter when or how many times you change track length. It will always be aligned to the grid as if it was that length all along since you started the sequencer. This appears to be exactly how the sequencer appears to work currently when you press PLAY for the first time, but once you’ve changed the length or division, it falls apart. I believe the way it actually works, is that instead using the modulus of a global step count, Elektron does something (but not exactly) like:

nextStep = 
  if (currentStep + 1 >= trackLength) 
    0 
  else
    currentStep + 1

Because it’s not using to a global counter, and using individial counters per track, it has to do something silly like reset currentStep to 0 whenever you change length or division and it is at risk of being incremented to an invalid number. Using the same example where globalStep = 8 and you change from 16/16 to 5/16, comparing the two algorithms:

# changing from 16/16 to 5/16 while on step 8
nextStep = (8 + 1) MODULO 5 = 4 // CORRECT

# changing from 16/16 to 5/16 while on step 8)
nextStep = 
  if (8 + 1 >= trackLength)
    0 # INCORRECT! 
  else
    8 + 1

But then, why does Elektron fall off the grid when you increase the track length? This is where my hypothesis falls apart. I really have no idea what the hell is going on - I just know it’s wrong. Curious to know what the actual logic is, because trying to nail it down in practice is pretty difficult - it just seems to randomly pick a step.

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I’ve noticed this before and have just become accustomed to needing to stop and start to resync when writing, I’ve avoided changing on the fly live for this reason. Cirklon handles this as expected can change a pattern length to any number of steps and then back to 16 and it’ll always line back up with the 1.

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Ok. Im a drummer.
Lets say we’re all playing in 4. Then you say ok drummer play in 5, but we’re not going to stop playing, we’re just all going to keep going.

And bang, now we’re all out of sync, and the 1 is lost.

You would need a gap with someone not playing so they could adjust the 1, and have it make sense for the listener.

Check out Burnt Friedman for classic examples of switching polyrhythms during a track, usually, its the drummer that takes a break.

Elektron sequencers are quite musical Id say. You can move the notes on the grid while the track is muted.

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Thank you so much for mentioning this. I keep forgetting to bring it up, but it’s truly somewhat of a workflow killer for me.

I’m clocking 3 Elektrons (RYTM MKII, A4 MKII and Digitone) independently using e-rm multiclock. In a way, that is helping - as I’m able to restart one of them if the timing gets messed up after changing the track length. If I have impeccable timing, it stays on time, yet it’s difficult enough to get right that it feels nearly completely up to chance. I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed the result of it going off the rails, so to speak.

At one point the track scale settings saw a rather major bug-fixing OS update, which was greatly appreciated. I find it hard not seeing what is being described here also as a bug. Here’s to hoping that it will be addressed one day. I feel inclined to add it to my feature request list and finally send that over.

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“damn, they were using these digital machines at the time that created all these weird side effects timing wise when switching length that we can’t reproduce with our quantum timed perfect machines nowadays, such a shame! Been looking for an Analog Rytm mk2 from 2030 with no luck” :sweat_smile:

As for increasing the length, I like this so that I can start a track with 16 steps first then increase to 32 then 48… (I wished we could also have a “jump and loop” mode where we could switch pages by specifying the numbers of steps). I did notice that I had to time the switching properly for it to work but increasing the length did work on the Digitone. I didn’t try with weird short meters, I suspect it makes it even harder to get the timing right.

anyway, would be nice if it’d work both ways!

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I can’t disagree more.
When going from a 4/4 to say a 7/8, nobody stops as the music is arranged in that manner. That is, in a band context.
Kill a haf beat at the end of the 4/4 to lead to a 7/8. Add a whole note to go to a 5/4.
Of course if this is not planned in the music, either one is a real pro and can swing from one resolution to another or indeed the music will have to stop.
In the case of OP, I believe he has patterns pre-planned / written ahead of time.
That is the reason why, amongst others, my T-1 is clocking my whole Elektron setup now unless I am only looking at a 4 to the floor.
In the case of drummers out of this world, one comes to mind: Virgil Donati.

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That work around is everything but musical and is the heart of the matter: you shouldn’t have to do that. Imagine you have a clip in Albeton and then press the *2 (“play at half tempo”) button and all of sudden yes, your clip is playing in half-time, but is also anywhere from 1 to any N arbitrary 16ths off beat. That’s how Elektron works. C’mon, are you telling me you wouldn’t prefer that when you select *2 that your downbeat is still the downbeat?

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Is your example everyone switching from 4 to 7? If so then sure
But if one player is switching from 4 to 7 while the rest of the band plays 4, then there has to be some adding subtracting of notes while the 1 of the rest of the band is still moving, or in elektron speak, moving the 1 :slight_smile:

Or a pause while that takes place, then come back in on 1.

Which again, makes more sense for the listener. (Which includes ones’ self as a player) It’s much more sonically pleasing to leave a space for a change to happen, than it just happens, especially with timing, polyrhythms etc. That’s just my take on it of course.

Regardless, if it bothers you that much, contact Elektron and request a feature update. Plenty of sequencers force you to stop them in order to make certain changes. I wouldn’t call it a serious design flaw, more of a lack of congruence with one’s idea of how things should be.

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I wouldn’t mind having an option, but really this current off-ness is only valuable in an experimental context, which you could easily accomplish in the aligned version I propose by changing length and divisions and then rotating steps afterwards, and those rotated steps would actually now be “on grid”, as opposed to how it is currently, where you have to rotate steps off the grid to be on grid in reality. Put another way, in the aligned mode you can have it both ways and be correct with regards to composition (the playhead is where you expect, and you can move steps forward or backward to experiment), in the current mode you cannot have correctness. (i.e. the playhead is in the incorrect spot, and you have to move the steps off grid to account for it).

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Does the Hapax sequencer solve this issue?

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That’s a good question. I asked some questions about how the Hapax works over on Modwiggler because beyond this issue, what I really want is the ability to change patterns without changing the playhead (e.g. when I change pattern on step 5, it should continue in the next pattern on step 6, with all respect to different track lengths and divisions). This is pretty much Ableton’s “legato” mode, which one user did report is supported (at a resolution of 16th note at least), so that’s at least one major +.

You can go a little above and below this post to get more details about that:
https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3877615#p3877615

As far as things snapping back to their correct state when changing divisions (which Hapax calls “Track Elasticity”), I’m not sure.

Hapax might not be in the cards for me, though, as their Drum Tracks (a single track with 8 lanes) do not support different lengths for each lane. That would mean I’d have to use regular tracks for my Octatrack and Digitakt, and bam, there go all 16 Hapax tracks leaving nothing for my polys or modular :frowning: Apparently this is much requested feature so I’m keeping my eye on it.

Sidenote, I do find it a pity to have to look elsewhere. I really love the aesthetics of Elektron gear and would love to keep my boxes to a minimum (also not crazy about grid interfaces). But hey, in the end gotta follow the music.

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I love this idea and wish the sequencer behaved in this way. You could have one track set to be 32 steps long, then partway through a song open it up to 64 to reveal an AB part of a song where you previously were just looping the A.

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Hey, different views on how things should happen or not. I was just chiming in to share how I approach things.
The Elektron sequencer is not bothering me at all… I barely have begun to understand the OT :joy: And your advice on this has always been very relevant in the past :pray:
I have no clue about what it involves to write code for these machines to actually do what they do. I believe it must be a head wreck and in that regard, apart from the little things that I manage to go around (that do not suit my workflow, or should I say my misunderstanding) I feel absolutely lucky to have access to these.
As I said, the T-1 solves a tiny issue for me in the end but also has opened other processes to go on about making music.

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It’s 16 tracks per project (and 8 pattern per track) and you can run 2 projects at the same time so it’s 32 tracks but yeah being able to set the number of steps per lane in this drum mode would be much appreciated (I do not own an Hapax so might be wrong here but been looking into buying one. It’s missing a few Elektron LFO mode for me though, especially the Hold mode!)

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I can certainly agree with that sentiment, I have no idea what must go into this from a development perspective.

Maybe if I better understood what was happening behind the scenes, then I could have track/division length changes always happening on time. However, in all of my experimentation with it over the years – something about it always eludes me and just feels error-prone or buggy.

I wish that I could change the settings and then apply them rather than them being applied in real-time. It’s like a dang game that I can’t win at but I keep failing and continuing to try anyway.

Would it perhaps help to request that Elektron add confirmation to this menu? I wonder whether that would solve it; press yes to have the changes applied (at the desired time)?

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Analog Rytm and Analog Four have a “Direct Jump” pattern switching mode that pretty much mimics Ableton’s “Legato” mode.

I only mention this because you might be interested in checking it out — I don’t think it addresses the core issue you’re describing (which I agree is a good one to point out).

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Right on. I’ll keep that mind, but don’t think I could use them as replacements due to the lack of external MIDI (I think they can sequence but IIRC they are pretty limited compared to these other boxes). I wish they’d port Direct Jump over to these other flagship products!

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Yeah, you’re right about the exterenal midi limitations. Basically on the Analog boxes you have to sacrifice a track to send external midi through it, and you don’t get the cool scales or keyboard folding. Plus in general I think there are fewer or no assignable CC’s. I should stop describing this thing I vaguely understand. But

Yes please!

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Adding a confirmation wouldn’t solve this on its own I don’t think - that’s a related but totally different feature, and is another one of those things where everyone is going to want both. It is fun to just play with the length in that screen live and have the changes take effect as you turn the knob (besides it throwing shit off the grid of course :smirk:). I’ve noticed that while Elektron occasionally adds new features to their products, they seldom (if ever) add completely breaking features AFAIK, which a confirm would be, so it’d have to be an option. I also think it’d be a bad way to solve this problem as you’d be giving up one feature for another (you’d have to give up live immediate control of length just to get changes to be on grid).

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I would too. I think your wish is perfectly reasonable for a part of what you describe.

I have learned to adapt but indeed once in a while, in live situation, I have to hit stop and restart to get things aligned again.

IMO there are things that just can’t possibly get right, though.
The most basic aspect, the wall I’m hitting the most often (as everyone Id say) is when I add pages, and go e.g. from 1 bar to 4. The sequencer has no way to know where the first bar is in my mind, or my band’s.
I don’t see any workaround: I have to know the way the machine works exactly and execute the change at the right time or I’ll loose the “1”.

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