I’m running a couple synths though my analog 4, one in each ext channel. Both have very strong output, especially my future retro XS which has an especially strong output.
Well, even with the volume on my synths maxed, I still have to drop all my levels on the A4 down to like 70, to get them mixed well, If I want any headroom at all on my external synths I have to go lower on the A4.
This seems really weird to me, why does the A4 kill the signal so hard? It’s worse than some crappy Boss pedal. I mean the sound is CLEAN, but it’s dead.
To make matters even worse I tried running the whole A4 out signal into my OCTAtrack for recording, and the octatack does to the A4 what the A4 does to my synths. Completely quiets them down, even worse than the A4.
All my external INPUT levels are ALL the way up, on the device and on the elektron.
This setup would be amazing if my signal wasn’t getting so subdued. What is the deal?
I remember having some similar issues in the beginning with these 2. But after a while i found a balance and now i don’t think about it anymore. Remember that you have 4 different volumes to set for an input going through a Thru machine on the OT. First one is on the mixer (±64). I usually have to set that to around -25-30 to avoid distortion from the A4. Then in the Playback and AMP menu’s on the Thru machine i crank both volumes up to max. After that i adjust with the Track level as needed.
As for the A4 levels… Well, it’s not ment to be even, it’s synthesis. Some patches you have to crank up, others down. Some times i’m down in the 30’s on the volume, other times 100+. You can always add some compression on the OT to even things out a bit.
But as i said, it took me some time to figure out how to get the levels i wanted. It’s just a matter of experimenting until you’re there.
The OT drops the input Level by 12dB at all inputs, Elektron have their reasons, it’s probably sensible, headroom etc, but it’s a bit annoying when you could look after your own levels, the ins and outs are a mixture of balanced / unbalanced so maybe they’re just covering all bases, nothing worse than clipping (through the fx e.g) so maybe it’s a compromise, even though i’d rather manage that myself too
Over time, and with lots of experimentation, listening, and comparing, I have now stopped using the inputs on the OT, and only use the inputs on the A4 when using it as a creative FX unit.
The unfortunate truth is that OT and A4 really flatten signals coming in. You’re better off with a decent mixer. Using the OT or A4 as mixers is just not cutting it anymore. The way I see it, the OT’s inputs are for sampling, and the A4’s inputs for using it as an FX unit. Using either of them as a mini mixer will just choke the sound to the point where everything sounds the same, flat, and not very dynamic. I suppose it has to do with headroom, conversion, and summing. It works if you have nothing else available, but is really far from ideal. If you want to use the A4 as an FX unit, it’s better to set up a send on your mixer to get in there, as opposed to using it as an insert.
I have had similar issues with getting the output levels coming from my MD and MNM.
I used to daisy chain my Elektrons, but I was having a hell of a time keeping my levels balanced between all the internal synthesis machines shared between the MD and MNM, because the MNM’s output is so much louder than that of the MD.
Since then I got a small Mackie ProFX8 mixer, which has made balancing the two pieces of hardware much much easier. And actually, I always thought that things sounded better running through the mixer (as opposed to daisy chaining the machines), so I’m glad to see other people here saying the same thing about sound qaulity.
Even through the mixer though, I have to turn the main volume of both hardware machines up pretty far, and I have to crank the GAIN way up on the MD mixer channel. It is a bit frustrating at a point, because sometimes certain sounds are so quiet they can barely be made audible, unless I go back through and turn everything else way down (rinse and repeat).
I keep wondering if it’s because the preamps Elektron uses, or if I just need to design better sounds! My JUNO-60 does not have this problam at all. It is loud as hell coming straight from the OUTPUT!
Well… i’d be lying if i said I wasn’t disillusioned to hear that…
I don’t own an Elektron unit yet, though with any luck I’ll have hands on RYTM sooner rather than later… However I was planning on running my bass synth through it… maybe look at an A4 and OT down the track if I found myself really gelling with the workflow… and after all the open ended discussion concerning side chaining on RYTM and the like it’s a bit distressing to hear that the inputs aren’t up to scratch on the A4, let alone the OT!
I wonder why this is though… it’s not like the OT is 12 bit like an MD or something… I hate to use the B-word, but you’re making it sound like they would of been better of just whacking a Behringer Pre behind the inputs…
I was really hoping to get around carrying outboard and mixers live as it’s almost as much hassle as having to deal with a laptop etc and just as much money… but it seems like thats the way it’s gonna go.
This is a subject I’d really appreciate some facts from Elektron on actually… sounds like the signal chain is a little bit of a mystery?
EDIT: Paland, can you not save volume settings per preset in the A4?
Well… i’d be lying if i said I wasn’t disillusioned to hear that…
I don’t own an Elektron unit yet, though with any luck I’ll have hands on RYTM sooner rather than later… However I was planning on running my bass synth through it… maybe look at an A4 and OT down the track if I found myself really gelling with the workflow… and after all the open ended discussion concerning side chaining on RYTM and the like it’s a bit distressing to hear that the inputs aren’t up to scratch on the A4, let alone the OT!
I wonder why this is though… it’s not like the OT is 12 bit like an MD or something… I hate to use the B-word, but you’re making it sound like they would of been better of just whacking a Behringer Pre behind the inputs…
I was really hoping to get around carrying outboard and mixers live as it’s almost as much hassle as having to deal with a laptop etc and just as much money… but it seems like thats the way it’s gonna go.
This is a subject I’d really appreciate some facts from Elektron on actually… sounds like the signal chain is a little bit of a mystery?
EDIT: Paland, can you not save volume settings per preset in the A4?[/quote]
Heya !
Regardless of what I said, the OT and A4 inputs are still a valid choice when needed. They are high quality, and the “flattening” I’m referring to is very subtle, and somewhat subjective (ie. i haven’t actually scientifically measured anything, but I’m relying on my ears)
I’d say it’s better to run through them than through a Behringer. If you’re going to use a mixer, and notice a difference, it should be a reasonably good one. But the OT and A4 inputs are definitely useable
Thanks for the additional context.
I’m sure you’re not “badmouthing” them or anything like that and I’m sure they’re plenty good enough for live etc when often a live gig will only have bus EQ and compression, let alone individual channels etc… it’s not a “polished” environment and in a studio you often have an abundance of clean pre’s on hand with range to spare… however it’s definently a topic that needs discussion I think…
I’d be interested to hear from Elektron wether there is any digital limiting happening internally as a safety… or wether they have any dynamic range and self noise specs for the input chain that might shed some light on the subject…
Maybe it’s just a really poor slew rate which is resulting in a “flat” sound?
I know you said you haven’t done any dedicated objective testing… but at the end of the day, if you can hear it, it’s definently there and measurable in some form or another…
Maybe an Elektron tech will chime in with what perspective they can without revealing any company secrets…?
I would love to hear from them also. What I can say is that there is some serious gain control going on inside the OT, not sure how, how much, but it looks to me almost like a brickwall limiter somewhere in the chain. I have noticed that mostly in terms of reducing the dynamic range of sounds when getting pushed. It’s easy to observe when recording in a DAW and looking at the resulting waveform. Granted, at that point, i’m going way over the “soft” amp headroom, so limiting is going to occur, on way or the other. Elektron’s gain staging has always been a mystery, I’m not sure why they don’t participate more in the education of their users.
I’m definitely not badmouthing Elektron In fact, if you see my Youtube channel, you will probably realize i’'m one big Elektron fan Which doesn’t mean that they’re perfect and do everything right !
There is some truth in it … i found this phenomena mostly on the OT when i put thru my Blofeld … it´s like reducing dynamics as you said … compaired to a F1-car with a speed-limiter around 80 km/h in the boxstop-section
this is not so prominent on the A4
Is it possible that this ‘flattening’ that’s being discussed is a consequence of the 12db Gain reduction at inputs followed by the 12db gain added, it could be significant at lower bit rates (ie 16) i did a trial on this forum and many people couldn’t tell the difference between source and ‘processed’, it was subtle, likely to have been worse at 16bit
fwiw - this is what 12 db reduction looks like (rhs same content as lhs)
well… if it was a limiter with a threshold… then presumably using super low gains and a bunch of amplification would maybe yield some results.
I’m afraid I don’t own any elektron gear yet so I can’t test it myself…
a combination of VU and PPM metering on the inputs and the outputs (or something like PAZ Analyzer from Waves perhaps) would yield some results in the dynamic range department.
…If things are being turned up and down internally though, there may be some make up gain circuits or something forcing things against that threshold, in which case what I suggested would reveal nothing….
EDIT: avantronica - I think 1 bit equals around 6.5 dB of dynamic range… so a 12 dB reduction would be the equivalent of reducing 16 bits to 14… or taking away an 8th of available resolution… not an insignificant loss by any means…
But, if it was a Bit Depth issue… (correct me if i’m wrong guys, just throwing ideas around) wouldn’t the detail be lost on the low volume/decaying elements (e.g.: cymbal tails and reverb “dropping out” in an un-natural way at a certain threshold) rather than “punch” and “range” being lost?
This may be something we can test be recording into a DAW and applying Bit Depth reduction and seeing if the results sound similar to what you’re hearing in the gain manipulation of the OT
interesting ideas there … i recall that the best way to discern between various OT test sound files ie original, reduced/gained and so on was in the presentation of the noise floor, so yeah a bit like the notion that it would be more evident in a cymbal tail - i think this would be more a problem if the OT was specifically a studio/fidelity tool, but as an improvisational/performance tool it’s not an obstacle
I have the same experience. I used to run all my stuff thru the OT but then I found everything sounded much flatter. I’m very sure this is not something I imagine. Also, when running a pure sine out of the OT, the top ends get flattened no matter what gain settings you apply so there is defenately happening something there.
i recently bought slim phatty to control it with a4… heard it ONLY trough A4’s input…
almost sold the phatty…
but changed my mind when i heard it at friends studio… serious synth it is
Wet only for the external inputs would be amazing. Does anyone know if that’s even possible with a firmware upgrade? I’m using the A4 external inputs to receive sends from my Mackie 1202 and it works great if you don’t need to adjust the send level.
For the most part I turn up the sends momentarily on another instrument when I want to add temporary delay and/or reverb. Unfortunately since the dry signal is passed through it increases the volume of the instrument as well as applying the effect. The only (two handed thus impractical) solution I have found is to nudge the track volume down while adding the effect.
Alternatively one could set up a performance macro for the effect level on the external inputs but then turning it up would add the effect to every track that has the send up.
