As a trained audio engineer it is my opinion, you can make great music using anything. Personally I have had trouble making music solely in the box. For modern sounding EDM and what not I think software is really the way to go. It’ how you get that really clean crisp digital sound. Since the sounds are generated completely ITB with no A/D conversion the sounds are pristine with no hum/hiss or artifacts coming from the “real world”. I’ve found that without great mixing and mastering ITB music can sound a little bit flat, or I think of it as 2-D. Analog and “real world digital” equipment can add little imperfections that add a lot of dimension to some music. I think a mix of both can be really effective. Some super crisp ITB stuff and some hardware stuff for that added dimension and character.
Depends a bit on the workflow/what I want… but:
option1:
Little recorder + live jamming… as in a 1take, turn on recorder… press play… twiddle knobs until end of song. press stop
stop recording…
I either master it in reaper… and use it as is…
or chop it to pieces in reaper and renoise… and use that to resequence the order of things and or add fx…
We are talking about a stereo-mix here… not a multi-tracked version… and no I do not like changing tempo’s if I am working that way.
makes it really shit to sync it in my daw afterwards…
Option2: Do everything in a hardware based studio that features a multitrack recorder… that’s nice. u jam/record smaller pieces and play with that within the hardware recorder… (mine, a roland vs2400 is comparible to the first version of Cubase that did audiorecording minus the midi-sequencing)
Option 3: sync all your hardware to a computer with reliable midi-connections and a good soundcard. Kinda the same as my harddisk recorder, but easier in use… plus you get the vst’s and all that… the unlimited effects…
Option 4: Jam away, and record your loops with your octatrack… as in… use track 1 to 7 to create dope beats and synthy things… whatever… record the loops as basic buildingblocks… and
either copy them in your favourite daw and sequence… or use the arranger in the octatrack and build your song with your loops.
And well… that’s all methods that I frequently use at my end of the internet… I am sure there are more methods. but they don’t work for me. I think my favourite is: 1take Livejam that I chop up in renoise…
One thing that’s great about hardware is you can’t check your email or start surfing the web on it… it’s dedicated to the task of making music, so when you sit down with it, that’s what happens… music gets made.
Yup! I used to be lucky enough to have a dedicated music computer that I only hooked up to the net for licensing D/Ling updates etc. Now my laptop does double duty and whenever I try to work ITB I just end up surfing the web and downloading VST demos haha.
Depends a bit on the workflow/what I want… but:
option1:
Little recorder + live jamming… as in a 1take, turn on recorder… press play… twiddle knobs until end of song. press stop
stop recording…
I either master it in reaper… and use it as is…
or chop it to pieces in reaper and renoise… and use that to resequence the order of things and or add fx…
We are talking about a stereo-mix here… not a multi-tracked version… and no I do not like changing tempo’s if I am working that way.
makes it really shit to sync it in my daw afterwards…
Option2: Do everything in a hardware based studio that features a multitrack recorder… that’s nice. u jam/record smaller pieces and play with that within the hardware recorder… (mine, a roland vs2400 is comparible to the first version of Cubase that did audiorecording minus the midi-sequencing)
Option 3: sync all your hardware to a computer with reliable midi-connections and a good soundcard. Kinda the same as my harddisk recorder, but easier in use… plus you get the vst’s and all that… the unlimited effects…
Option 4: Jam away, and record your loops with your octatrack… as in… use track 1 to 7 to create dope beats and synthy things… whatever… record the loops as basic buildingblocks… and
either copy them in your favourite daw and sequence… or use the arranger in the octatrack and build your song with your loops.
And well… that’s all methods that I frequently use at my end of the internet… I am sure there are more methods. but they don’t work for me. I think my favourite is: 1take Livejam that I chop up in renoise…
[/quote]
Thanks man that is helpful. I have been making separate individual patterns (with however many voices) then recording and chopping them up in Ableton. I just can’t imagine how anyone builds a whole song in chain/song mode, and was wondering if buying an Octatrack would help me ‘get it’. Perhaps it will just continue to be Rytm + AK plus Ableton then…
Buying more stuff never “instantly made me get it”, it did however gave me new ways of getting there 
but yeah, everybody have their own way of getting there… and to be honest… I have been thinking about
swapping most of my gear… for an AK and a rhythm… and connect that to my laptop… use renoise for writing
and ableton/bitwig in combination with relux (renoise sample-engine vst) and vj software. In the case I want to get out of the studio and perform…
What I like of my octatrack, is that I can just take 1 box in my hand to the pub… and make some noise.
I can build entire concepts in renoise… load it up in my octa… and perform with it… realtime music making…
not as a “lets build a song at home and tinker with it” … for that I got a laptop with a daw.
I am sure its possible on an octatrack… make your patterns… use the arranger to break up the patterns and changing of scenes and using a midi-feedbackloop to use a midi-track to drive the fader… (Here is the concept: the midi-fader is controllable with a midi-CC… so if you use the midi-sequencer of the octatrack and control itself via a feedbackloop [that’s an interesting word for put a midicable from midi-out to midi-in] you will be able to program the automation of the fader/scenes) but blah not efficient…
I think that’s the real fun of machines/hardware… to use them realtime… less fun in studio because of “its inefficient quickly” …
I hope that overbride will make it more efficient in studio… you play with your toys until you got nice stuff… turn on the laptop… and use the laptop and overbridge to “play your shit in realtime” the first go… and then be able to edit those recordings and automate stuff and rerecord parts and stuff…
then very easily record them in your daw (well your working in it anyways) but well lets keep it in my renoise world… I can select a few steps and resample that… amazingly good for stutters and edits… so I hope that overbridge allows me to do that… select a few steps and poef resample it without fuss or “old hardware type things to get the sound” … just usb-cable in and go type technology… (ok you gotta install vst)
anyways… good luck in finding your ultimate way of having fun/making music…
so yeh if you cant tell the difference in terms of sound between hardware and software synths, you just havent been using them long enough… pretty much anyone with a few years of experience will tell you that software and hardware devices just fundamentally sound different from each other - however not everyone prefers the sound of hardware
workflow is another issue, some things are far more convenient in software, some things much better in hardware
i find that quality, usable sounds are easier to achieve with hardware pretty much across the board, including lofi chip type devices and all that… even though they are certainly not nearly as processed as software, since plugins usually have a fx chain built in and all kinds of modulations, etc… but hardware synths tend to be a better source to work with, right from the start
in terms of real analog stuff, it is truly impossible to achieve the same kinds of sounds in software in a certain range, notably the very high end of the frequency spectrum, very high pitched sounds, sweeping extreme levels of resonance and so forth… its just physically impossible for software to replicate that kind of sonic response atm (via algorithims, modeling, etc) - that could change in the future, but right now its not happening yet…
its kinda like we cant clone people yet because we cant reproduce DNA exactly like it occurs naturally, but it may be possible at some point
at the same time, there are things analog oscillators cant do, that only digital can… so yeh, some people (especially certain old-timers) actually prefer digital and/or software
personally i like hybrid hardware synths best…
One interesting thing we observed at the Octatrack workshop that Allerian conducted was that hardly anybody used the Arranger, which is the feature for chaining patterns together for playing a whole song. Seems like everybody preferred to switch patterns manually - which makes sense - you do your drop/build/whatever when YOU feel like it, not when the machine does as programmed. Some nights you want to spend more time building for your drop, some nights you don’t. Scenes are a powerful feature that just about everybody except me relies upon heavily. A Scene practically gives you an alternate pattern that you can morph to and from with the fader.
The thing about the Octatrack is there’s lots of stuff to “get”, but that’s part of what makes it so fun and inspirational to work with. Here’s Allerian in action at last year’s Miltown Beatdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQaTqBRVdys
thanks again for the replies guys, really interesting thread
[quote=““invisible acropolis””]
so yeh if you cant tell the difference in terms of sound between hardware and software synths, you just havent been using them long enough… pretty much anyone with a few years of experience will tell you that software and hardware devices just fundamentally sound different from each other - however not everyone prefers the sound of hardware
workflow is another issue, some things are far more convenient in software, some things much better in hardware
i find that quality, usable sounds are easier to achieve with hardware pretty much across the board, including lofi chip type devices and all that… even though they are certainly not nearly as processed as software, since plugins usually have a fx chain built in and all kinds of modulations, etc… but hardware synths tend to be a better source to work with, right from the start
in terms of real analog stuff, it is truly impossible to achieve the same kinds of sounds in software in a certain range, notably the very high end of the frequency spectrum, very high pitched sounds, sweeping extreme levels of resonance and so forth… its just physically impossible for software to replicate that kind of sonic response atm (via algorithims, modeling, etc) - that could change in the future, but right now its not happening yet…
its kinda like we cant clone people yet because we cant reproduce DNA exactly like it occurs naturally, but it may be possible at some point
at the same time, there are things analog oscillators cant do, that only digital can… so yeh, some people (especially certain old-timers) actually prefer digital and/or software
personally i like hybrid hardware synths best…
[/quote]
This +1!
You said everything I would want to say. Also, IMO, Analog Four isnt the best representation of analogue but anyway…
Elektron etc Vs VSTs - convince me please!
I would like to share my experience (15years+), i start with S2000akai and GrooveBox, offered me better hardware Z8, Virus KC, RS7000… Have some financial problem sold that and comes to software because of a music shop (BLABLA yes Music Shop BLABLA existing no doubt, like every shop indeed)
And i go back (not exactly) maybe the word is extend or going to an hybrid solution…
The simple thing you can Trust me about you question is (depend of the music kind of your own) BUT the GOAL : is to MAKE MUSIC !
Don’t LOOSE yourself in “consideration” … you can loose Years in some debate like that. MADE MUSIC with your Budget ! Maybe find a more pro studio to rent and pay one or two hours here and there…
If someone give me advices at some point i really spent less bucks.
Learn Synthesis can really be done with software + controller, no needs to spent too much, and it’s a very important step !!! a REALLY BIG ONE 
Then it’s depend of what you want to do, do you want to produce or do you want to perform, or do you want to do both. And also it’s a personal preference for your “workflow”.
I notice i’m more productive on hardware, i don’t loose my myself on a computer, because the computer can do anything… When i’m on a drum bar, i do rhythm, when i’m on a synth i synthesis sounds or experiment, or build a bass line or a melody, when i was on a percussion module i play some drums etc… i think that’s for someone better to use a device for what it generate !
And maybe you not loose yourself on a computer, so it’s really up to you
My advice is buy a groove box second hand and a computer (or maybe you have it because we all need a computer at some point), and learn or do music and then you will know on what your the most productive.
at some point you should want the best of the both world, going in a snackbar and loose yourself outside on your computer, and then return at home loose yourself on your Analog Rytm…
BUT MUSIC is the Key, with your budget…
And Experiment is the Door to take without forgot to made music
(or not if that’s what you want to do, be a chemist rather a musician)
EDIT: If you’re an experienced user it should be relate on two things :
[ul]
[li]How is big your place or dedicated room to make music[/li]
[li]How budget you have[/li]
[/ul]
Because when you taste for hardware, at some point you can want particular tone or “constructor signature” and want a moog bass so buy a moog, want a TB sound and buy a TB or clone, etc… etc… etc… it can cost two harms and legs at the same time… But at the END what are you a fetishist collector or a musician We always comes to one Notion : MUSIC ! and Music is notes and rhythm, groove and feeling… so let your Heart talking and make music ! Simple as that …
^ That’s the point. HavFun 
To answer the OP question: Should I choose an Elektron hardware product over some VSTs…
There are tons of reasons to just go out and buy VSTs… more features, versatility, less wires, higher track count, more processing power, get everything done in one box, use one controller for all your instruments, more storage, upgradability, i/o choices, etc… I could go on and on about why computer DAW-based production is a better deal.
I make most of my music with NI’s Maschine 2.0 and Ableton Live. In fact… the best music I ever made has been with a computer, and I own a TON of hardware synths (so much so that for a few years I had to throw out my bed and sleep on the floor to make space for them.)
The “going back to hardware-only” thing is a recent trend. Computers are better for most things nowadays.
BUT… Here’s why I choose to buy a hardware Elektron synth:
-
Computers suck at modelling the behavior of analog filters. Real analog filters sound juicy and sweep better. Resonance is more organic, etc…
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Hardware Analog oscillators have mojo. The Elektron’s oscillators have a distinct quality to them that sometimes I love and sometimes I hate. Truly Discreet analog oscillators are even more amazing. They do sound different.
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Inspiration. When I want to do loads of automation inside a DAW, I have to first assign automation lanes, set them up… figur out cc# and midi stuff (yuck) , edit what types of curves I want… program a controller (a HUGE pain in the ass if you are doing it for multiple plugins) or use a mouse to draw them in (even more annoying)… I have to switch track lanes constantly to edit or draw new automation… the setup is tedious and sucks the desire to make music right out of your soul.
on the elektron devices, I just hit record and start tweaking. Much more satisfying user interface and workflow. In this regard, the elektron instruments are amazing.
-
The sound: the Elektron monomachine and machinedrum are digital, yes. But they really have a sound of their own. Not better or worse… just different. The AK and A4 are at the core just simple 2 oscillator monosynths, but they sound like a cohesive, unique, and well-thought out instrument. If you like the Elektron flavor, you won’t easily get it in a VST…
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The elektron sequencer. Yes… you could buy renoise and get more power. You could use Ableton Live and get more power. Fuck… most modern DAWS
do much more and sound great…
BUT the Elektron sequencer is quirky, easy to use, and very deep. It is most likely the most powerful hardware step-sequencer ever made. It is well thought out, a joy to use, and compliments the elektron sound engines well.
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Hardware looks cooler. just sayin…
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and a better investment. You can always sell it down the road if you decide to buy the latest, greatest thing a few years from now.
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You touch hardware. You build a relationship with hardware. You alter your technique and perception according to it’s abilities and what you want from it. It’s like learning the machine’s personality, and how to coax what you want out of it. Hardware is sexy.