Editing a pattern when another pattern is playing back

Elektron Gear Analog Rytm
#1

Hello all.
I have seen this question


but also want to ask a similar one for Analog Rytm MK II.

I would like to edit a non-playing pattern while another pattern is playing.
Then when I am ready, switch to it.

I couldn’t find a way to make that happen.
If it is not possible, does anybody have a workaround to achieve the same thing ?

If not, it would be a nice request to send to Elektron, maybe they would include it with an OS update.

This feature would be very nice for creating music on the fly.
Please tell me if I am missing something.

Thank you!

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Step sequencers that let you edit a sequence while another one is playing
#2

Nope. Not on any Elektron box. You can send m a feature request but it s really a quite fundamental change to the operation of m. Highly unlikely if you ask me.

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#3

For workarounds: see the various threads on using loopers.

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#4

Thanks a lot!

#5

This is basically one of the most important feature missing for live performances!

Think about DJs, when they listen to the second record while the first is playing, for example.

This would allow to tweak a pattern of a chain while the chain is playing for example, and get out of the 64 steps limitation.

Analogous as changing page on the 64 steps and working on a specific page while the pattern is playing through the pages, but for chains.

#6

Using the DJ analogy, they’ve usually got 2 decks and a mixer. 2 AR’s and a mixer would more closely compare and thus be able to perform this task.

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#7

Yes, the dj analogy is unfortunate and misleading, I was thinking while typing. The different scenario of 2 AR definitely would be something to consider if you want smooth passages between songs/projects, and would allow to prelisten and mix between the two, but 2 AR would not allow the creation of chains anyway.

Think if for example, when the 64 steps are selected, if you could only modify the page only when it’s playing. That would be a nightmare. This is actually what happens when you have a chain. you can’t modify the pattern unless is playing at that moment. Is quite absurd.

#8

The only device that I know of that can do something like this is the Squarp Hapax.

This would be amazing if possible on any Elektron device frankly, but it goes against how these machines are designed, so not possible with their current lineup.

I second the use of a loop pedal (either real or in Ableton) as a workaround. You’d be amazed at how much mileage you can get out of this workflow, even with a static loop.

#9

Hi, yes the hapax is going on the right direction with the two independent projects, but I think that it’s slightly different from what you would get with this proposed functionality. The idea of the Hapax would be more similar to two decks of a dj, which is useful but at another level (between songs, not inside the song). I have Squarp Pyramid myself and they are interesting devices.

I’m not sure how you evaluate the impact of such change on the codebase of the AR, I don’t think that goes against the design of the devices, and from the software perspective it’s possibly doable in my opinion.

#10

The TR-8S can do that, you can let some variations playing while you edit another one. Then after that you can add it to the chain, it’s a pretty intuitive and useful feature.

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#11

Sure, but in this description hides the secret: the DJ has two decks, two sets of playback channels…

If Elektron implemented this feature, each device would need a second set of most of the hardware + software. That would almost double the cost on the Analogs and massively increase the complexity.

#13

Hi Octagonist,

I’m so sorry my unfortunate analogy led people astray, please allow me to clarify this once and for all:

THE DJ ANALOGY WAS A MISTAKE OF MINE AND IT’S WRONG, IS NOT RELATED TO THIS POST.

So, the analogy with the dj was a very loose one, meaning sometimes you need to work on something else while music is playing. This is the ONLY right part of my analogy, all the other more literal interpretations are misleading.

THE POST IS ABOUT EDITING A PATTERN ‘B’ WHILE THE PATTERN ‘A’ IS PLAYING.

This requires no additional or different hardware features. It’s not about listening pattern ‘b’ while ‘a’ is playing, but only edit pattern ‘b’. So controls (buttons and encoders) and display would show and modify pattern ‘b’ while pattern ‘a’ is playing.

The conversation about it is also happening on the Analog Rytm feature request thread.

#14

Id predict after the initial novelty of it being implemented very very few people would actually use it regularly.
Most performing material would likely have the variations pre programmed either using more patterns or conditional triggers , plus some additional live triggering.

Fill in the request but I wouldn’t wait for it on current devices.

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#16

Yes I think you got to the point: right now if you want to break the 64steps barrier you eventually end up with pre-programmed material. But actually what makes Elektron devices great is their greater ability to be performative instruments. Conditional triggers for example go in that direction of breaking the 64steps barrier without leaving the 64 steps. Chain mode is another try to do that, but in the current state (with this feature missing) is not really usable live (with full potential). It’s like you missed the [PAGE] button for editing the 64 steps, you would have 64 steps available but you would end up using that only with preprogrammed stuff. The presence of that button demostrates the strong need for being able to edit without affecting the playing.
I proposed some shortcuts to achieve this functionality on the thread ‘Analog Rytm feature request’, maybe we could continue discussion there.

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#17

I also think that having a feature like this, if implemented without lots of care, significantly introduces more potential for confusion for users. “Why can’t I hear any of the edits I’m making?”

#18

M8 can do this. You have access to edit any phrase no matter where the playhead is. There are various ways to approach it depending on the intended scenario.

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#19

I agree, personally I would find this feature very confusing and difficult to use, many times I have so much things p-locked I can’t even remember what the original trig sounds like, trying to fill a pattern without the ability to hear it would be incredibly difficult.

maybe if you 100% confident in your kit and all you have is velocity/notes modifying the sound it would work, but if it’s more complicated then this it would be real hard

also, adding perfs/scenes would be almost impossible

#20

First of all, let me clarify the functionality proposed, copying/pasting the post that i wrote on the AR feature request thread, so we are all on the same page:

“the ability to paste a pattern onto a different pattern than the one that´s currently playing and edit that pattern.”

This is definitely something that makes sense for people that perform and improvise live. Would allow to create a pattern, and then build variations that can be chained together.

For example a possible workflow:

  • create a pattern on A1.
  • copy/paste the pattern on A2
  • change the kit on A2 while pattern A1 is still playing
  • create a chain using those patterns, for example A1 A1 A1 A2

Think about working with 64 steps, for example. you have the page button that allows to edit a specific page while another one is currently playing (and playing cycles through the pages). If you didn’t have the page button, you would have to edit that page just when it’s playing, which is totally impractical. This is exactly the situation now with chains, you can’t edit a pattern while the chain is in another point, which for an improvised set doesn’t really work.

I would propose, both in and out chain mode:
[new chain] + [play] = legacy mode, pattern played and edited are the same.
[new chain] + [stop] = pattern edit mode. Selecting a pattern doesn’t change the pattern playing, but only the pattern displayed. On screen the pattern edited is displayed. The controls [encoders, buttons] change the pattern edited. An icon is displayed on top right screen.
[new chain] + [page] = cycling the edited pattern through the pattern on the chain, left to right, playback is unaffected.

Now let me address some of your objections:

Id predict after the initial novelty of it being implemented very very few people would actually use it regularly.

First of all we need to ask ourselves: “are we improvising a live setup with AR?” If you use AR only on the studio to compose, most probably this functionality is not for you. If you perform on a stage (and possibly with an audience) starting from a blank canvas, then this functionality is very powerful.
Not sure how you quantify how many people would use the functionality, but right now the chaining functionality is not really usable live cause is very annoying to edit a pattern only when it is playing, and it’s switching under your fingers following the playback. another question you should ask yourself is: “is the music I perform comfortable on a single pattern?” if you are playing maybe a techno set, with 4 on the floor, and not many pattern variations, this functionality is not for you. If you play IDM (and don’t want to use pre-organised material), this functionality is for you.

I also think that having a feature like this, if implemented without lots of care, significantly introduces more potential for confusion for users. “Why can’t I hear any of the edits I’m making?”

If it’s your first day with a drum machine and you press the combination of buttons to activate this mode, and you ignore the feedback on the display, yes it could be confusing. On the other end, do you find confusing when on a pattern let’s say of 48 steps, you edit page 2 while page one is playing? I think one gets used to this pretty quickly.

I agree, personally I would find this feature very confusing and difficult to use, many times I have so much things p-locked I can’t even remember what the original trig sounds like, trying to fill a pattern without the ability to hear it would be incredibly difficult.

Surely there are different level of musicianships, from being Beethoven and being able to hear the music in your head and write it perfectly on the score to pressing buttons randomly without a clue on a drum machine, and there are infinite shades on the middle too. What I’d like to point is, firstly all the workflow on a drum machine is based on not listening your changes while you’re making them. From the simple programming a pattern by steps, to adding p-locks, to anything in between. The only moment when you hear what you are doing is when you record live, with the record button blinking, all the rest is based on your ability to predict the result (and tweak it once you hear it). With randomisation functions, predicting is even impossible (but still a lot of fun). I’m sure that if someone uses a drum machine, it’s quite comfortable on this workflow and way of working.

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#21

@Bloom, I admire your insistence on this topic but the fact remains that the AR is an analog device and there’s literally no way this would be possible unless it had twice the analog circuitry, as this is what actually generates the sounds you are hearing per pattern. It’s not a question of software / code or anything like that. It would literally need to have twice the innards and hence be twice as big / fat / tall. Perhaps on a digital machine that still has a lot of leftover CPU, which again, isn’t likely, as that’s not how manufacturers make their products. But with something like the AR, which is dependent on analog circuitry for almost every part of its signal path, this is 100% not possible.

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#22

Hi Maymind, sorry but I disagree with you, maybe you still haven’t understood (probably my fault) the functionality in question. I have also to point that I’m a software engineer with more than 20 years experience on lots of industries, so probably I’m used to talk more with people that have a similar background and the communication with non technical people may be more difficult.
There is no hardware (modification) involved (or needed) whatsoever in the proposed functionality. The double hardware would be needed if you would need to play both the ‘main playing’ pattern and the ‘edited’ one. This is not what was originally requested and it’s not what I second here.
It’s purely a software modification, and it may be even an easy one. Internally, I imagine it in C/C++, you have a variable uint16 pattern; that stores the current pattern. They would have to change that with uint16 pattern_play; uint16 pattern_edit;then inside the function that changes pattern you’ll have something like:
function change_pattern(uint 16 new_pattern) { if (mode == PATTERN_EDIT_LEGACY) { pattern_play = new_pattern; pattern_edit = new_pattern; } else pattern_edit = new_pattern; }
inside the sequencer functions would be used the variable pattern_play while for screen and input process functions the variable pattern_edit
Hope this clarifies it a bit.

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