DT Parameter-locks lag on Midi tracks when recorded to Bitwig & Creative MPE workaround. Help?

[celebrave]

I have been slamming my head against the wall trying to get p-locks of the digitakt 1 to work correctly when recording midi automation in bitwig studio.

THE ISSUE:

no matter the combination of settings i choose, the drawn-in automation points do not start with their respective 16th notes but late, about a 32nd note late. i can make the beginnings of the notes fit to the grid reasonably well with the right latency compensation in the synchronization settings and by enabling record quantization, but nothing seems to be working for getting the midi signals to be sent with the notes rather than delayed.

this makes parameter locks with midi unusable for a good workflow as everything needs to be shifted by hand afterwards, always.

TROUBLESHOOTING:

the curious thing is: the p-locks on Midi tracks work just fine initially… until I record them as automation, then everything shifts.

The issue persists even when I delete the recorded clip. However the problem vanishes completely when I hit “delete automation lane” on the respective device parameter (here for example “Phase”) - now the p-locks are streamed straight from the digitakt again and sit exactly where they should, i can hear it.

The same issue persists if I change from Overbridge mode into Audio + Midi and use ASIO4ALL.

Do Automation Lanes themselves create a delay just by existing and if so is there anything I can do about it?
Is this the case in other DAWs?

THE RIG:

i have two laptop machines, a 2015 i5 with win 10, and a 2022 i7 with win 11 maxxed out on ram. both have the same issue. i use the digi as my sound card in overbridge mode, with midi being sent over usb. bitwig is master and DT is slave but even when I make DT the master the issue persists. i do not require the audio tracks from the DT, just controlling midi inside bitwig is what i am after.

bitwig studio is on version 5.0.11. the result is the same even when the automation track is hidden from view.

WORKAROUNDS:

Preparing this post I came across my own aha moment in the shower! I can offer at least something here for others having this issue to enjoy our DT in Bitwig WAY more!

1. Since the p-locks work when not recording the Midi automation, I could just record the audio output of the affected Instrument track and work in Audio as soon as the pattern leaves the DT and enters my DAW.

But even better:

2. MPE EXPRESSIONS OF COURSE! Instead of mapping a DT encoder to a parameter directly, I CAN map velocity from the SRC page to that parameter instead. Now the notes record the way they should with modulation happening per step, as velocity is “baked in” to the respective note. Wow I think I just solved it, sort of, ahahaha!

But the issue now is, I have my VEL knob on the TRIG page, but my Aftertouch on the SRC page (Pressure in Bitwig). Means I don’t have all the note expression controls in the same place on the DT. And I cannot even find a way to trigger TIMBRE expression in Bitwig as Breadth Control doesn’t seem to do it. Means I am limited to two expression controls on the DT spread out over two different pages?

I have tried to map the needed CCs in the AMP page for the FLTR page but they don’t have any effect like using them from the TRIG and SRC page.

What am I doing wrong?
Any ideas?

cheers!

[sezare56]

Welcome @celebrave.

So to sum up, CCs are recorded a 32nd note too late ?
Isn’t it because only notes are quantized in Bitwig ?
Can’t help about Bitwig.

What if you record midi without quantize an compensation ?
What is the CC lag ? It should be right after the note.

[celebrave]

@sezare56 Thanks for the welcome!

About a 32nd late, yes.

I turned off Midi clock compensation in the settings, same result. The automation lags to the same degree.

Until I delete the automation lane and have the p-locks come from the DT again, which is in perfect timing and doesn’t “squelch” the notes up halfway through.

Record quantization was and is turned off.

[sezare56]

@celebrave

Until I delete the automation lane and have the p-locks come from the DT again, which is in perfect timing and doesn’t “squelch” the notes up halfway through.

I don’t get this part.

[DreamXcape]

The delay between note and p-lock seems to be about a 64th note. That’s 34ms at 110 BPM, which is a lot. It’s too much to be explained by a midi issue so you can strike that from your list.

The issue must be with Bitwig, Overbridge or the combination of both.

I don’t use Bitwig or Overbridge, but two things come to mind:

• Overbridge causes extra latency when used in combination with a separate audio interface, but since you’re using the Digitakt as your main audio interface I don’t know what this does regarding latency. Since the behaviour persists without Overbridge you can probably rule it out(for now).
• Bitwig has Ableton roots. Ableton has a setting that affects the latency of everything when you hit the record button. This setting basically disables all latency compensation to get the lowest latency possible while recording. A similar setting in Bitwig could explain part of the behaviour you’re seeing.

I can’t think of anything that would explain the full 34ms delay though.

[celebrave]

@sezare56
the digitakt itself does the job of p-locking well when controlling midi in bw studio, locking parameters exactly and not late. the automation lane is somehow the problem, or rather the way bitwig overrides what is happening on the digitakt with its own automation lane.

it’s difficult to explain if you have a different daw in front of you, and i don’t seem to understand it myself

hence the workaround in the OP, especially number 2, i.e. using cc’s from DT that bitwig interprets as MPE note expressions rather than as automation.

i just have problems setting them up. are the VEL and the AT values controlled from the TRIG and SRC pages just regular CC values like any other CC, or are they somehow special? if they are not special, why can i not set them up correctly on the filter page? i still do not understand midi obviously

@DreamXcape
hmmm, so p-locks work fine for you when using DT’s midi tracks with a daw? i’m a bit jealous

what do you make of the note expression mpe idea instead of using track automation?

[sezare56]

@celebrave

it’s difficult to explain if you have a different daw in front of you, and i don’t seem to understand it myself

I don’t use DAWs for automations since ages…so yeah I don’t get it and really don’t know how to solve this with Bitwig…

@celebrave

are the VEL and the AT values controlled from the TRIG and SRC pages just regular CC values like any other CC, or are they somehow special?

Velocity values are in the Note message, Pitchbend and Aftertouch are specific messages. (DT Aftertouch is Channel pressure, not Poly Pressure). Modwheel and Breath Control are CC1 and CC2.

[celebrave]

@sezare56
guess i am looking for all existing values in note messages then, since they are forced to begin exactly with the respective note.
can values in note messages (like velocity) be sent from the FLTR page instead of the TRIG page?

i appreciate your help, shows me what i have yet to learn about

[sezare56]

@celebrave

FLTR page instead

Only CCs in the Filter page.

Notes have 3 values : channel, note and velocity. You can automate notes and velocity in the Trig page, that’s all…

[celebrave]

ouch! well, until i solve this cc automation lag situation in bitwig it seems i am stuck with only being able to use 1 parameter - the note velocity - to p-lock in sync.

thanks for your help dude.

if anyone here has hacked this better in bitwig somehow, will you please let me know?