DJ mixer vs Octatrack (fx and looper)

The Lounge Other Gear
#1

I apologise for the slightly clickbait-ey title. I’ve been watching loads of OT videos (don’t we all) and I’m very curious about people’s performance/jamming setups. I’ve got my DN and MS and I’m enjoying them both but I’m curious about what I can add to the mix that will enables loops, transitions and FX.

I’ve looked at various guitar pedals but most don’t seem particularly well-suited for desktop use which I suppose isn’t a huge surprise. @DaveMech (huge fan) has some great videos with his performance setup and clearly that DB4 mixer is an absolute beast but it looks enormous and it’s very expensive so I started look at other options. I was slightly surprised to see that there aren’t that many DJ mixers with built-in FX, or at least not at a lower price point.

That said, I see that the Pioneer DJM-450 has a looper effect (called Roll) and it also has a few other time-based FX (delays etc) and a handful of “colour” FX. At the £600-ish price point it seems like a decent option and it looks like you could do the loop transition trick among other fun stuff. I also had the idea of splitting my Digitone out into both channels of the mixer so you could do stuff like use the kill EQ and filter FX on one side and the dry on the other, or have a loop on one side of just the drum or just the non-drums part so you could do drops and breaks etc, flip back and forth etc. You get the idea.

Anybody else doing anything like this? Any other good mixers I should be looking at? Frankly, I wish there was something a bit smaller (Elektron performance mixer with overbridge at Digi size - yes please) but I could accommodate one without too much trouble. I think @DaveMech has proved the value that a performance mixer with FX can add to a Digitakt and/or Digitone setup but I’m not sure I’m willing (or ready) to go as far as the DB4 at this point. I’ll take this opportunity to also shout out to @AdamJay - I can’t stop watching his live techno videos based around MS and OT. Amazing work. I feel like one box as a sound source and one for looping/fx is both realistic for me (in terms of cost and space) and really quite powerful with a bit of practise.

To head off the inevitable - yes I’m still thinking about an OT but let’s be totally honest here, it’s a very different prospect and learning curve whereas a DJ mixer is designed for immediacy and fun. I don’t doubt for a second that the OT is an amazing beast but ease-of-use is a significant factor.

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Pioneer Toraiz SP-16
#2

Loops of what?
Transitions between what?
What kinds of effects?

Have you considered a Kaoss Pad 3+?

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#3

For a while I was using an old xone 62 mixer with my OT to practice vinyl beatmatching + do some real time sampling stuff. At the time my neighbor had a DJM 450 so I tried the setup on that as well and I kind of liked the xone better for this type of thing. The 4-band eq was nice for not having to use up FX slots for basic audio sculpting, or in the DT case, the filter for non-sound-design uses, and the lack of FXs didn’t bother me since I would just route the send channel to an OT track to do all the delays, verbs, and flangers or whatever I needed.

From DJing I never really found the roll FX that useful on the Pioneers for long loops; its more of a quick beat repeat type of FX for buildups, etc. None of the Pioneer mixers have midi inputs too, so you would have to be perfect on your button presses to get a solid loop going, which might be too finicky if you plan to use this in a live setup. Getting a dedicated looper pedal for the DJM 450 whose input is Master 2 and output is the Aux input would work as a OT-lite type setup, but you don’t get the immediacy of having a dedicated fader to control the level or a means of sending different signal levels to the looper that are not going to the main speakers as well.

If you want to go further down this path, I’d recommend looking at mixers with more capable looping features, or mixers with dedicated send outputs on them to do the looping on another device. Things like the AH DB2 or 4 come to mind, but I’ve never spent that much time on those mixers to really offer a good opinion on their viability for this workflow.

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#4

The good thing about the OT as a looper and mixer is it is pretty fun and immediate as well, once you learn how to make it do those things. For the live looping, I’ve made a guide. , and for the mixing, that is relatively easy to figure out on your own, perhaps the easiest component of the OT. It is made more fun and immediate via MIDI control though. A Twister, launchControl XL, or Faderfox goes a long way. Whatever you need to get all the mix controls on one surface, or Page, is best.

On this, I’ll first say thank you, but add that the grass is always greener on the other side of the YouTube camera.
I am currently wrecked with fixation about building a eurorack system, to be controlled by OT, all while knowing that what I have is more than capable of presenting my vision, and that I should just settle in with it for a while. I go through cycles of wanting a different setup, by imaging possibilities, and of course this gets exacerbated by seeing others use a tool to its fullest. It’s easy to imagine what I could do with that tool, get excited about that, release some dopamine, start planning. But I gotta remind myself that just getting to that different setup is only the beginning. Once you get there, like you said, it takes practice.
So choose whatever you’ll be most comfortable practicing with.

I did shows with just the Rytm MK1, along with the pigtronix infinity looper + a vestax Dj mixer for seamless transitions.
It was a lot of fun at the time, but eventually I grew to want more. More synthesis, more sample manipulation, more variety.

The great thing about the OT is I haven’t run out of ways to use it, and as mentioned in Learning to love Octatrack by making it wear all the hats at once , I’ve set it up in a way that allows me to perform with all those different schemes, without limitation. It’s so flexible that I keep a second power supply near my sofa just for exploration.

But I have to be mindful of that dopamine trap creeping in… the “what if”.
What if I got a 2nd OT? What if I moved all my MS material into that 2nd OT and gave it its own dedicated knobby controller? How much more powerful would THAT be? How much more work would it require? Is it worth it?

The grass is always greener. It never ends.

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#5

Thanks for the response @AdamJay and I get it - after 20 years of buying too much software I understand that more isn’t always better. The thing here is that I’m basically trying to slim down from the world of (far too much) software and just have a minimal-ish hardware setup. I’m enjoying what I can get out of the Digitone and I’d just like to have some performance-oriented FX and the ability to have a synced loop as a transition/performance option.

The higher-end Pioneer and Xone DJ mixers cost £1500-2000 so the Octatrack doesn’t seem so expensive by comparison but I’m scared (like others) of the complexity and if it takes a lot of setup and it’s fiddly to work with then I’m worries I just won’t enjoy it. I just looked at your quick guides that you linked to and it doesn’t look too scary though, to be fair.

Anyway, I totally agree with your “grass is always greener” sentiment and perhaps a cheaper and more simple DJ mixer with some FX will scratch the “performance” itch and maybe if I outgrow that then I can try something more sophisticated. On a sort-of-related note, I’m also trying to stop worrying about the idea of spending money and maybe then selling stuff on later. I’ve had a weird hang up about it in the past. If I spend the money and then change my mind (or outgrow whatever the piece of gear is) in a few months then I can sell for a small loss and move one. Not such a big deal.

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#6

Look at some of the used Vestax 3 and 4 channel mixers. Many have stereo FX send, are relatively cheap, and sound great.
Add a stereo looper for $300ish.

#7

When your goal is a slim setup I “fear” you won’t get around the OT. There is effectively no mixer around with a good builtin looper functionality. So your minimal setup would already grow into 3 devices (+ learning 3 devices, of course).

The OT is immediate and fun even just after a single day of usage when you focus on single functionalities (like using it as mixer). There is simply no need to learn every single feature of it at once (or at all if you don’t need it).

Price-wise it’s the best and most compact package you can get.

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#8

Think of it as a rental fee. That makes me feel a little better when I sell at a loss.

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#9

I just stumbled across some youtube videos that show Maschine+ being used as a synced looper, with multiple options for overdubbing, loading loops into different tracks/patterns etc, each of which can have their own FX chains etc.

At less than £1000 it seems like a powerful bit of kit, and perhaps more flexible than I realised. Perhaps be interesting to use my Digitone as a sound source and record synced loops to be turned into tracks, messed about with etc. And still without a computer.

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#10

A good DJ mixer is not comparable to an OT.

For example you can do so much with a Xone 96, You can mix, filter, equalise, saturate, apply filters and the magic lies in those precise faders and it is all in mixed in analog domain.

Look at some of the live set at Stoor Sound System they are all mixed with a Xone 96.

It is really fun!

I don’t find Maschine+ interesting and fun to be honest it is still based on a software concept.

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#11

the master sounds stuff is a nice compact size, pretty spendy though. I like it because it is easy to preform with especially considering I am worrying about doing a bunch of stuff on my other gear. The FX sends on it are stereo and can either be a master send/return or the aux knob pre or post the channel volume so pretty much what ever configuration you might want. The master sound FX unit seems pretty cool but for the money I would maybe say pair it with a ZEN delay for a long delay into a transition. I was using an old DJ quick sampler with it for a while, it lets you catch a sound just do some re pitching as it loops. That said a radius four and a top notch FX unit is gonna run you around probably something like £1500 if you went for the radius 2 just be sure you are into the idea of keeping your set up even more minimal.

Personally love mine but I think you need to keep in mind how much you want to be playing your mixer live VS playing your elektron gear and other synths. To me it was the small size and easy controls that drew me to it knowing full well I needed to focus a lot more on other gear but wanted something just easy and fun to just reach over and manipulate between multiple boxes with.

I still go back and forth on the idea of an elektron mixer… it certainly could be amazing but I’m not totally sure I want a really complicated mixer. Dealing with 2 grooveboxs and a complex synth is probably more than I need to take on as is.

#12

Thanks for the suggestions @Riuozami and @bwo - there’s clearly a lot of amazing gear out there and the option paralysis can start to creep in quickly! @Riuozami those Xone mixers are amazing but what I was thinking of here was more about time-based performance FX like loopers, synced delays etc rather than traditional DJ mixing duties like EQing and mixing two tracks. I know it all sounds a bit vague and that’s because it is, but all the discussions and looking at different paths is helpful so thanks.

@bwo I’ll confess that I’m aware of rotary mixers but I never understand if they had a different purpose to traditional DJ mixers or if it was just a stylistic choice. The mixer in the video certainly look very well-made and sounds lovely but perhaps not exactly what I’m looking for. Always good to know what’s out there though, I had no idea this stuff even existed.

It’s worth mentioning that I used to DJ a bit (only in my bedroom) and although I enjoyed the performance part of it I didn’t much enjoy the “curating hundreds of tracks” part of it. The modern digital DJ tools like Traktor etc are very performance-friendly (especially with dedicated controllers) and have amazing looping tools, FX etc that lend themselves well to beat-oriented electronic music. I can’t help but wonder about looking down that road but just using my own material. It’s not like the old days - I don’t need to press vinyl or burn CDs, I can literally just bounce down loops and other “raw material” in a DAW using my Digitone or whatever other tools I fancy and then immediately “perform” with it using DJ software.

I don’t want to be dogmatic and I’m not trying to prove anything in terms of being “DAW-less” or whatever, I just want to enjoy myself and make some music at home BUT without staring at the screen the whole time. A little bit of the time is OK as long as long as I can then switch off the monitor and make some music with my hands! I think I said in another thread here - no harm in using different bits of technology for what they’re good at.

#13

I started out using OT as a mixer for my other boxes, but I think things really opened up for me when I connected my synths to a mixer (6 track stereo DJ mixer in my case). Just having the kick on a separate channel makes a big difference for me. In addition, this setup allows me to keep to OT switched off and to focus more on the other boxes.

#14

Xone DB4 is actually pretty good for that matter.
You get 4 FX (quality ones, nothing to do with Pioneer imho).
You also get 1 looper per track and the looper is pretty spot on.

Edit: had one that I started DJing with that soon became a hub for a couple of synths.

#15

Yep :slight_smile:
Have actually not turned my MBP in a while :slight_smile:
Although I use Reaper as my main DAW, I recently have been starting every session with the laptop turned off.
It has proven very productive.

#16

Well my work MBP is on for 8 hours a day and then I end up using my personal one as well (much of which is spent here chatting about music gear) so some hardware is a good remedy to get away from the computer.

Thanks for the opinions on the DB4, it’s clearly a leader in the field for a reason. I’m a bit hesitant to spend that sort of money which is why I was considering the pioneer or something else a bit cheaper. Are the Pioneer FX really that bad? I watched a bunch of YT videos and I thought they seemed pretty decent as performance FX. You probably wouldn’t use them for “serious” production work but that’s kind of the thing - I’ve grown extremely bored with the whole idea of surgical music production, spending hours fiddling with one sound, messing with arrangement or EQing a perfect drum and bass snare etc. I respect these professional producers and their dedication but to me it just kills the enjoyment stone dead. Probably a conversation for another day though!

#17

I see your point- a Xone 96 will allow you to add up to 2 fx on each channel, in stereo.

The mixer has its own channel dedicate to effects which can be also equalised.

It is real fun- you can add a couple of eventide pedal or OTO BIM and BOUM and or any pedal you might already have.
It is very fun cause not only you can jam with your machines, but you can also create tracks, do a lot of improvisation.

You can use the mixer also as an analog preamp and go ITB with real analog quality.

I would not compare and confuse this with an Octatrack or Machine +

Have a look at the rear of the mixer to understand the potential of this instrument.

If your main interest is effects you can choose the Xone DB4 which has a real digital multi effects built in and can be used as sound card and or controller for Ableton- possibilities are endless.

#18

I just want to add that going from a computer based setup to a hardware one is really tossing a coin.

Getting out of your comfort zone can be interesting when you want to experiment, but I try regularly to go the “Dawless” route because I am also in front of the computer all day and want to look at something other than a screen for a while, but it’s really never satisfying in terms of sound and control and I realise that I’m just having more fun with the help of my computer.

I really want to insist that if it is just a hobby, it may be a bad idea to get too much out of your comfort zone like that because it can really crushing to become a beginner again when you’re not prepared to grind again. Making things sound good as an ITB setup (especially when you have your routines and are fast) with only machines is really difficult, and having to relearn to do basic stuff when you just want to have fun is really difficult and unwelcome.

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#19

Pioneer FX are not “bad” but… They just plainly do not sound good to MY ears :slight_smile:
DB4 line of FX is coming straight from iLive (or DLive, not sure) line of mixers. They are not just DJ FX.
Using a DB4 as a soundcard is not a good idea as the drivers were very badly written. And furthermore not supported. I had to rewrite portion of the hexadecimal code.
Apart from that, you get a routing matrix out of this world for a DJ mixer as well as 3 types of EQ per channel.
If it was not for the soundcard drivers, I would buy it again. Had a MODEL1 after it and would gladly return to the DB4 :slight_smile:

#20

What went wrong with the Model 1? I was just going to suggest it after the Xone 96…